Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[Vita]

So you are moaning about them not getting involved when you don't actually want them to get involved anyway. Fair enough, seems a tad pointless, but go for it.

I wasn't for the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan etc..My point is they like to stick their ore in everything, so why not israel/syria?

About 21,000 people have been killed since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began, most of them Palestinian, over 60 years. So either it isn't genocide or the Israelis are so rubbish at it that they can't even manage in 60 years what Hitler managed in a week.

What Israel is doing is wrong, without a doubt, but it isn't genocide. Considering the conventional firepower they have at their disposal, never mind their nuclear arsenal, if the Israelis really did want to commit genocide then the death toll would be horrendous.

21,000? Where did you get this figure from?

The only reason Israel cannot use their arsenal of Nukes is because of the uproar from other countries if they ever did. Not that anyone gives a monkeys at the moment or have done in the past 6 decades. They just don't want to be seen like the 'bad guys'.

 

[Sliver]

So you are moaning about them not getting involved when you don't actually want them to get involved anyway. Fair enough, seems a tad pointless, but go for it.



About 21,000 people have been killed since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began, most of them Palestinian, over 60 years. So either it isn't genocide or the Israelis are so rubbish at it that they can't even manage in 60 years what Hitler managed in a week.

What Israel is doing is wrong, without a doubt, but it isn't genocide. Considering the conventional firepower they have at their disposal, never mind their nuclear arsenal, if the Israelis really did want to commit genocide then the death toll would be horrendous.

Exactly right. You're wasting you're time on these forums though. The jew hatred is strong in these parts and no amount of reason, facts or evidence will change that. It's just good old fashioned anti semitic bigotry.

 

[Craterloads]

So you are moaning about them not getting involved when you don't actually want them to get involved anyway. Fair enough, seems a tad pointless, but go for it.

I thinks it's asking for consistency more than anything else.

About 21,000 people have been killed since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began, most of them Palestinian, over 60 years. So either it isn't genocide or the Israelis are so rubbish at it that they can't even manage in 60 years what Hitler managed in a week.

What Israel is doing is wrong, without a doubt, but it isn't genocide. Considering the conventional firepower they have at their disposal, never mind their nuclear arsenal, if the Israelis really did want to commit genocide then the death toll would be horrendous.

Whilst I agree with you its not genocide in the typical sense, since lets face it they could pretty much kill all the Palestinians if they wanted given their fire power.

BUT there are various definitions of genocide which some of Israeli policies could easily fall in to.

 

[Craterloads]

Exactly right. You're wasting you're time on these forums though. The jew hatred is strong in these parts and no amount of reason, facts or evidence will change that. It's just good old fashioned anti semitic bigotry.

I don't think many have a problem with Jews, well I certainly don't. More with Israel's in the form of Zionists. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

The Jews I've met in life are just normal people. Being anti Israel and its policies doesn't = anti Semite.

 

[Castiel]

The Kingdoms of Israel has been in Israel since 1000BC

The Kingdom of Israel lasted for less than a century and both their predecessors and successors were largely client kingdoms of the Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians and Assyrians. The Kingdom of Israel was a very short-lived State.

Do you really accept that because a biblical account says that there was a Israelite kingdom 3000 years ago that is justification for displacing an entire population who have been there for the last thousand years or more..not to mention the small issue that Palestine pre-dates the Israelites by some 2000 years or more, and also that European Jews have no more claim on the land than the Arab Palestinians, less in fact as the Palestinians were living there before the huge influx of European Jews after WWII. The Levant to which modern Israel was part was hardly a bunch of goat herding nomads either...it was part of one of the most civilised and culturally advanced empires of its time...it formed part of the Ottoman Empire, it formed part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, it formed part of the Great Seljuk Empire, it formed part of the Great Macedonian Empire, before the Kingdom of Israel, it was the great City States of Phoenicia and so on..historically its people have been anything but goat herding nomads.

So if you really want to talk about who has the historical claim, then you really need to do your homework.

 

[Sliver]

I don't think many have a problem with Jews, well I certainly don't. More with Israel's in the form of Zionists. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

The Zionists are morons, just like Hamas are morons. There are a lot of Jew haters here though. We have two threads going right now and all you have to do is read the nonsensical reasoning certain members give for supporting Palestine 100% and blaming Israel 100%. It's just plain anti Semitism.

 

[Vita]

Exactly right. You're wasting you're time on these forums though. The jew hatred is strong in these parts and no amount of reason, facts or evidence will change that. It's just good old fashioned anti semitic bigotry.

The jew hatred is strong? It seems like you have missed the the many islamic threads we get on these forums.

Fact is, Palestinians are owed land, and they're not getting it. They are getting shunted into a small piece of land only to be then bombed. Where is the humanity in this? Why does it seem you are ok with what they are doing? It's wrong full stop. Then you get the oh well hamas started it? If you got punched in the face for no reason, would you not hit back?

I'm not one to hate jews. However, what I do hate is that those in power make the people of this world seem stupid. The truth is the new lie, and lie is the new truth. The media is the most corrupt of all. Feeding lies into the population.

I don't agree at all what is happening in Palestine. I don't agree with what has been happening in Burma, or anywhere else in the world which allows people to be killed while everyone else sits back and says, 'they started it.'/

Jews don't agree with zionism, and it's the zionists that play the major role in Israel.

Not to worry, every dog has it's day.

 

[RDM]

I wasn't for the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan etc..My point is they like to stick their ore in everything, so why not israel/syria?

Because, in both cases, there is a nation on the UNSC that would block action, in the latter case our own parliament blocked action. The chances of intervention in anything for a while are slim because of Iraq and Afghanistan and as you do not like intervention, be pleased with that.

21,000? Where did you get this figure from?

What figure would you put on it? The above doesn't include the casualties from the 6 day and Yom Kippur wars as they were states vs. state conflicts. It also doesn't count the estimated 3-20,000 killed in Jordan, because they were killed for trying to other throw Jordan.

The only reason Israel cannot use their arsenal of Nukes is because of the uproar from other countries if they ever did. Not that anyone gives a monkeys at the moment or have done in the past 6 decades. They just don't want to be seen like the 'bad guys'.

Read your post back, you are saying in the same sentence that they wont commit genocide because of the international uproar and yet they don't give a monkeys about international opinion.

They are doing some pretty awful things, but genocide isn't one of them. Lets all hope to whatever God you happen to believe in that they don't decide to actually commit genocide.

 

[spoffle]

So you are moaning about them not getting involved when you don't actually want them to get involved anyway. Fair enough, seems a tad pointless, but go for it.



About 21,000 people have been killed since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began, most of them Palestinian, over 60 years. So either it isn't genocide or the Israelis are so rubbish at it that they can't even manage in 60 years what Hitler managed in a week.

What Israel is doing is wrong, without a doubt, but it isn't genocide. Considering the conventional firepower they have at their disposal, never mind their nuclear arsenal, if the Israelis really did want to commit genocide then the death toll would be horrendous.

To say this, you have to not understand what the term "genocide" actually means.

Genocide
Line breaks: geno|cide
noun
[mass noun]
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group:

 

[Sliver]

The jew hatred is strong? It seems like you have missed the the many islamic threads we get on these forums.

Nice straw man. This isn't about muslim bashing threads at OCUK. It's about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Guess I made a fundamental error by sticking up for Israel yet again. Every time you do that on these forums you get lambasted with vitriol and splenetic juices.

 

[spoffle]

Nice straw man. This isn't about muslim bashing threads at OCUK. It's about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Guess I made a fundamental error by sticking up for Israel yet again. Every time you do that on these forums you get lambasted with vitriol and splenetic juices.

It would help if you didn't post nonsense such as "What Israel is doing is fine, they're just defending their land which they have a right to because the UN said so" because that gives off a very strong impression.

 

[RDM]

I thinks it's asking for consistency more than anything else.

You're very likely to get consistency from now on, we are very unlikely to get involved for a very long time or until a party gets a large enough majority in the House of Commons to suffer a reasonable percentage of rebels.

Whilst I agree with you its not genocide in the typical sense, since lets face it they could pretty much kill all the Palestinians if they wanted given their fire power.

BUT there are various definitions of genocide which some of Israeli policies could easily fall in to.

You have to stretch the definition beyond all reasonable use of the word (if of course genocide is a word that can every be used reasonably). Calling it genocide is purely political and doesn't help because it just makes the person using it look foolish when it can be so easily refuted with facts and figures. Hell the Jordanians could have killed more Palestinians than the Israelis if the upper estimates of Black September are true.

I don't think many have a problem with Jews, well I certainly don't. More with Israel's in the form of Zionists. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

The Jews I've met in life are just normal people. Being anti Israel and its policies doesn't = anti Semite.

Have a look at a couple of posts from Sho, they have gone well past being anti Israeli. There are also a couple of other posters that have strayed well beyond anti Israel in previous threads. B&W was one (but seems to have mellowed more recently) and Stockhausen another.

 

[bitslice]

There rationale wasn't since they are "goat herders" and based off this particular job we feel the Jews are more worthy to the land.

Nope, didn't say that...

And you don't know why but you think you can reject my post?
Happily you are wrong anyway:

The Palestine Mandate
"..Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country"

Still the land owners resulting in their claims of injustice being justified.

The last owners of Palestine was the Turkish Empire, administration then passed to the British, who then gave a mandate to the Jews.

At no point did anything ever belong to the Palestinian goat herding, wool weaving, wheat growing proletariat

Are you getting this yet?

They are in the right, even the Israeli Prime Minister at the time acknowledged it.

You misunderstood entirely what he was saying, he was saying he understood what the Arabs feelings were on the matter and this is why he felt justified in resisting them with force.
Go back and research the full quote...

Have a look at the rest of his quotes, he didn't feel one ounce of sympathy for the Arabs.

The goat herding, wool weaving, wheat growing Jews of that's time were long gone and did not exist. Because random Jews lived there a thousand years ago does not give modern unrelated European Jews any valid claims to land owned by the current native inhabitants.

Nope, they were still there along with a few Christians, about a tenth of the arab population.

Once again, the current native inhabitants did not own anything. You can say they had a moral right until you are blue in the face, but legally they didn't.

Times have progressed. Nor does it reflect on right and wrong.

Isis just took over parts of Iraq, might works for them.
Right and wrong are relative in that part of the world, but technically what is legal is also right.

Sorry made very little sense

Oh noes, craterloads fails to understand words that never happens normally...

 

[Vita]

Because, in both cases, there is a nation on the UNSC that would block action, in the latter case our own parliament blocked action. The chances of intervention in anything for a while are slim because of Iraq and Afghanistan and as you do not like intervention, be pleased with that

Why didn't the block the intervention in Iraq/Afghanistan?

Read your post back, you are saying in the same sentence that they wont commit genocide because of the international uproar and yet they don't give a monkeys about international opinion.

Can you not read my posts correctly. What I am saying is, no-one else seems to care what Israel has been doing for the past 6 decades. Not Israel cares.

They are doing some pretty awful things, but genocide isn't one of them. Lets all hope to whatever God you happen to believe in that they don't decide to actually commit genocide.

It is genocide. It is the deliberate killing of large groups of people. Even if they did commit the 'genocide' you are referring to, what do you think would happen? The US would step in and play super-hero? Doubt it. They've had so much time to act, they haven't done, yet they were so quick to act in Afghan/Iraq.

 

[Vita]

Nice straw man. This isn't about muslim bashing threads at OCUK. It's about the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

Guess I made a fundamental error by sticking up for Israel yet again. Every time you do that on these forums you get lambasted with vitriol and splenetic juices.

Every time a muslim sticks up for themselves on these forums the same happens.

Get over it.

 

[Sliver]

Every time a muslim sticks up for themselves on these forums the same happens.

Get over it.

What's to get over ? I judge people on what they say regardless of religion or anything else. The truth is the truth and it doesn't matter to me who speaks it. The trouble is people like you who have a preconceived idea which is wrong, but you're invested in that idea emotionally for various reasons, usually bigotry, and thus nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. You see one side of the coin. I see both sides and that's the difference between us. So, maybe you need to work though some of your issues first and then come back and look at this objectively.

 

[Vita]

What's to get over ? I judge people on what they say regardless of religion or anything else. The truth is the truth and it doesn't matter to me who speaks it. The trouble is people like you who have a preconceived idea which is wrong, but you're invested in that idea emotionally for various reasons, usually bigotry, and thus nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. You see one side of the coin. I see both sides and that's the difference between us. So, maybe you need to work though some of your issues first and then come back and look at this objectively.

Ok standing up for palestinians is one side of the coin, yet you stated before you're sticking up for israel and now you're saying you see 2 sides of the coin? Ok sure.

Looking at it objectively, the Israelis need to give the palestinians their land back. The end.

 

[RDM]

Why didn't the block the intervention in Iraq/Afghanistan?

It seems that the Russians really didn't care enough about either to put the breaks on.

Can you not read my posts correctly. What I am saying is, no-one else seems to care what Israel has been doing for the past 6 decades. Not Israel cares.

Again, this changes the sentiment not at all. If Israel doesn't care, they why haven't they done it? Your argument is nonsensical. For Israel not to have done seems to suggest that someone, somewhere cares enough about the international reaction.

It is genocide. It is the deliberate killing of large groups of people. Even if they did commit the 'genocide' you are referring to, what do you think would happen? The US would step in and play super-hero? Doubt it. They've had so much time to act, they haven't done, yet they were so quick to act in Afghan/Iraq.

It is a pretty rubbish genocide considering the Palestinian population is increasing rather then decreasing.

 

[Vita]

It seems that the Russians really didn't care enough about either to put the breaks on

Yes they didn't. What the point here?

Again, this changes the sentiment not at all. If Israel doesn't care, they why haven't they done it? Your argument is nonsensical. For Israel not to have done seems to suggest that someone, somewhere cares enough about the international reaction.

Yes, like I said before. They do not want to be deemed the 'bad guys.' Hitler did the holocaust, what happened there?

It is a pretty rubbish genocide considering the Palestinian population is increasing rather then decreasing.

More Palestinians have died then israelis. How is the population increasing and where is this statement from?

 

[Sliver]

Ok standing up for palestinians is one side of the coin, yet you stated before you're sticking up for israel and now you're saying you see 2 sides of the coin? Ok sure.

Looking at it objectively, the Israelis need to give the palestinians their land back. The end.

I admit that the Israel policy of land grabbing and usurping Palestinians from their homes is wrong. Just because I support Israel doesn't mean I'm a crackpot fundamentalist. However, when I look at Palestine and what they do to Israel, I feel they are worse. Personally, I'd like a two state solution where both sides can live in peace and govern themselves. I always supported the right of the people of Northern Ireland to live in peace under British rule. It took decades of violence to sort that out and even now it's still simmering under the surface. However I always viewed the IRA as the terrorists. Same thing in the Israel/Palestine conflict in my opinion, Hamas are terrorists.