Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

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Soldato
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Caporegime
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The article is just propaganda. Rather than talking about approaching 2000 people murdered through an illegal and reprehensible action, this article now has you wondering just how many were militants.

In exactly the same way that the original "civilian casualty" figures were. Thats all that statistics are in a scenario like this - fuel to the fire for whichever side they suit.

And we know there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, so if they don't need your needs, you can always twist them into something you want.

So what do you do, you take the total number of dead, get an estimate from somebody as to how many were civilians, and how many were military. Given palestine has no clear military / civilian divide, that number was always going to be grey area. Its obvious that the death toll in gaza can be stretched either way - to show more or less civilian casualties depending upon whose side of the fence they sit on.

The interesting thing about that article was it refrained from driving a definitive line in the sand and giving exact figures, but instead pointed out that the number may not be accurate. Which of course we all know because we know how statistics work in conflicts like this, didn't we ;)

Here's a question, if Germany bombed London for a few days and happened to target military bases as well as civilians. 2000 people were killed, does it suddenly become okay if only 500 civilians were killed and 1500 "militants" were killed?

It's a argument that is trying to suggest more killings than we thought were somehow moral because these people were militants. Is it okay to murder members of a military now even when you started the conflict, you have overwhelming force and they pose no threat to you? It's trying to soften the number by instilling the idea that it's okay to kill militants, it's not.

Given that gaza has no conventional military, i think that militants who bare arms and attempt to attack isreal with rockets deserve no sympathy. Isreal is perfectly within its right to kill those have the intent to bare arms and attack its land. If these people don't want to die - the answer is simple. Don't pick up guns and rockets and stay at home.

On the other hand, I think Israel are bang out of order with its disproportionate response to that threat. Their trophy system means that most rockets do very little damage and the israeli casualty list is tiny. These rocket attacks do not give them cart blanche to launch airstrikes at whatever target this wish and to hell with any concerns about civilian casualities. Is the suspected militant outside or inside a hospital ? no matter, launch a missile anyway and it doesn't matter if we destroy a hospital, a school, or a family house in the process.

I'm neither pro isreal or pro palestinian in this. The palestinians could gain the ultimate moral high ground in all this and stop the attacks. Then Isreal would lose all justification for its strikes. Equally Israel could stop being so heavy handed with its retribution and instead improve their surveillance programs with an aim of pinpointing exactly who is doing it, and getting the palestinians to hand them over for firing rockets into isreal after they'd agree they would stop.

However neither of these things will happen. There is too much bad blood over too many years which means that neither of them will stop until the other one is wiped out. And Isreal is being funded by the US, so we know who'll win that battle.
 
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Soldato
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Who said anything about the blockade? The article you linked to and my post was referring to the UK arms trade to Israel.

In case you fail to understand, let me explain:

Israel has over 70+ UN Sanctions AGAINST it.
Israel is constantly creating illegal settlements on stolen palestinian land.
Israel has an illegal blockade over Gaza
Israel is using illegal weapons on Gaza civilians.
Israel is causing an illegal humanitarian crisis in Gaza (International Humanitarian Law)

But if you want to speak about legalities INSIDE the UK:

CAAT says 131 such licences have been granted, with £41.5 million worth of UK components being sent to Israel that can be used in drones, radar, targeting systems and other military hardware.
It said they "may have been - and may continue to be - used in the commission of grave breaches of international humanitarian law and/or international human rights law".
The deaths of 10 civilians in a strike on a United Nations school in Rafah - cited by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon as a "gross violation" of international law - were an example, the letter said.
"Subject to any new information you provide us, we consider that the failure of the UK Government to suspend existing licenses for the export of arms to Israel is unlawful where there is a risk that such arms may be used in hostilities in Gaza," the letter concluded.
"Unless the UK government agrees to suspend existing licences, we are instructed to consider issuing judicial review proceedings."
Rosa Curling, from the human rights team at Leigh Day, said: "If arms from the UK are being used to commit crimes against humanitarian law, and human rights law, then export licences for these materials must be revoked immediately.
"If this is not done, the Government's current policy is
unlawful and susceptible to legal challenge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2727121/UK-arms-exports-Israel-illegal.html

Highlighted above just in case you don't understand what is illegal about Israel's current position under worldwide human law and the UK's involvement in being complicit in these crimes as a result of arms sales which they claim they can not verify if used in Gaza recently or not.

Or are you going to claim that Palestinians ain't human like Israel are?

Maybe you'd like to be reminded that Israeli arms dealers are constantly being caught the world over performing illegal arms trades too?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ed-over-illegal-arms-deals-worldwide-1.299308
 
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Soldato
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In case you fail to understand, let me explain:


Or are you going to claim that Palestinians ain't human like Israel are?

*sigh* are you purposefully just creating your own topic to put in my mouth and then argue against?

As per the independent link... The UK has to abide by the EU's trade laws. The EU's trade laws according to your own article state sales are legal if consequences have been evaluated
Thus trading arms to Israel is not illegal as this has been done.

In regards to the UN...the law banning sales to a nation such as Israel is still a few years away...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/world/arms-trade-treaty-approved-at-un.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Note in regards to the rest of your post....
I haven't stated whether this is morally right or wrong.
I haven't professed a preference either side of the fence and yes I know the positions of both isreal and Palestine.
I am not lacking in a copy and pasted list of offences from either side.
You are not informing me of anything new.
I haven't declared any people to be sub human so kindly stop pulling that out of your arse.
 
Soldato
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I'll quote it again for you seeing as you missed it for the third time:

Subject to any new information you provide us, we consider that the failure of the UK Government to suspend existing licenses for the export of arms to Israel is unlawful where there is a risk that such arms may be used in hostilities in Gaza," the letter concluded.

There's a clear risk of many weapon items we ship to Israel being used in this recent offensive. Our current government is unable to verify the whereabouts of these said parts so there is a legal challenge as a result. Not to mention the fact we are shipping them weapons when they carry out the aforementioned illegal acts.

When we also take into account the various Israeli's arrested worldwide for illegally selling arms to other countries for a number of years now this further strengthens the case that the UK is overdue a legal challenge.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-equipment-shipments-from-Israel-to-Iran.html
 
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In exactly the same way that the original "civilian casualty" figures were. Thats all that statistics are in a scenario like this - fuel to the fire for whichever side they suit.

And we know there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, so if they don't need your needs, you can always twist them into something you want.

So what do you do, you take the total number of dead, get an estimate from somebody as to how many were civilians, and how many were military. Given palestine has no clear military / civilian divide, that number was always going to be grey area. Its obvious that the death toll in gaza can be stretched either way - to show more or less civilian casualties depending upon whose side of the fence they sit on.

The interesting thing about that article was it refrained from driving a definitive line in the sand and giving exact figures, but instead pointed out that the number may not be accurate. Which of course we all know because we know how statistics work in conflicts like this, didn't we ;)



Given that gaza has no conventional military, i think that militants who bare arms and attempt to attack isreal with rockets deserve no sympathy. Isreal is perfectly within its right to kill those have the intent to bare arms and attack its land. If these people don't want to die - the answer is simple. Don't pick up guns and rockets and stay at home.

On the other hand, I think Israel are bang out of order with its disproportionate response to that threat. Their trophy system means that most rockets do very little damage and the israeli casualty list is tiny. These rocket attacks do not give them cart blanche to launch airstrikes at whatever target this wish and to hell with any concerns about civilian casualities. Is the suspected militant outside or inside a hospital ? no matter, launch a missile anyway and it doesn't matter if we destroy a hospital, a school, or a family house in the process.

I'm neither pro isreal or pro palestinian in this. The palestinians could gain the ultimate moral high ground in all this and stop the attacks. Then Isreal would lose all justification for its strikes. Equally Israel could stop being so heavy handed with its retribution and instead improve their surveillance programs with an aim of pinpointing exactly who is doing it, and getting the palestinians to hand them over for firing rockets into isreal after they'd agree they would stop.

However neither of these things will happen. There is too much bad blood over too many years which means that neither of them will stop until the other one is wiped out. And Isreal is being funded by the US, so we know who'll win that battle.


Could you imagine a life where you hear an air raid siren and have to live with the fact that a rocket might be inbound at any second. Anyone you know could be under it.

The rockets are not just physically damaging, they would be extremely stressful, and frankly, I believe a country has a right to stop that.


Truthfully though, I don't think there is an answer to the problem. I think its religious in nature, and there is a fundamental part of the Islamic world that will not coexist with others. Yes, maybe tolerate them at best when it suits, but overall, its a religion with very clear beliefs.
 
Soldato
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A case for a legal challenge does not equal "the current and past trade agreements are illegal"

Here's a hint. These arms deals have been going on for decades as has the conflict...none of the rules or actions by either party has changed...and yet the deals still haven't been turned over. Did the lawyers just forget about this in 2007? Or during any other major offensive? Negative. Its just part of the beating of the lawyer drum to try and get a paid for by the state hearing that will get thrown out after a few months.

Its worth actually reading the articles and picking out the conjecture from the facts.
 
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This, I moan about swindon but jesus, I'm so glad I was born down here.



hahaha yea, I bet half were athiests?

Were they ****!


I had the displeasure of having to visit England again for the past few days (and again soon enough. :( ). I went through London, Slough, and then travelled up to Holyhead to get out of the hole as soon as possible.I swear that some whole towns/localities were more Asian/Black than white, in particular, of extremely different cultural make ups!? Even in the years that I've been gone from the place, its changed even more.

Guess colonisation wasn't the best idea after all. :p
 
Soldato
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England is not so bad.

Its just areas like Birmingham etc or Bradford which can seem like border towns to foreign countries rather then westernised city's.

I am Indian by the way and I was brought up In London before I moved to Suffolk.


Back on topic however the last thing we want in Palestine is ISIS crawling up Hamas's ass and taking over what is left of the country.

Israel are doing themselves no favour in what they are doing to the innocent civilians of Palestine.

IS are not far behind in there conquest of the weakened middle eastern countries.
If these shenanigans continue I see Palestine being the next stop on there roadmap for "liberation".
 
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In the meantime surprise surprise Israel continues to demolish Palestinian homes in the west bank:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...collective-punishment-201481892047643368.html

I think most people accept that both sides are committing horrific acts.

The difference appears to be that Hamas actually wants Palestinian civilians to be killed by Israel, as they view it as good PR.

Whereas Israel is trying to minimise its own casualties.

For that reason alone, it's impossible to have anything but contempt for Hamas, even if you don't agree with Israel's actions either. There is too much deep-seated hatred on both sides, and on Hamas side, a casual disregard for all life, even of its own people.

Not exactly a win/win situation.
 
Soldato
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I had the displeasure of having to visit England again for the past few days (and again soon enough. :( ). I went through London, Slough, and then travelled up to Holyhead to get out of the hole as soon as possible.I swear that some whole towns/localities were more Asian/Black than white, in particular, of extremely different cultural make ups!? Even in the years that I've been gone from the place, its changed even more.

Guess colonisation wasn't the best idea after all. :p

Don't worry the Mexicans are coming your way
 
Caporegime
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Could you imagine a life where you hear an air raid siren and have to live with the fact that a rocket might be inbound at any second. Anyone you know could be under it.

The rockets are not just physically damaging, they would be extremely stressful, and frankly, I believe a country has a right to stop that.

Completely agreed.

Where I personally don't agree however is that right extending to bombing hospitals and schools and other potential targets where the death of innocent women and children is a certainty.
 
Soldato
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I had the displeasure of having to visit England again for the past few days (and again soon enough. :( ). I went through London, Slough, and then travelled up to Holyhead to get out of the hole as soon as possible.I swear that some whole towns/localities were more Asian/Black than white, in particular, of extremely different cultural make ups!? Even in the years that I've been gone from the place, its changed even more.

Guess colonisation wasn't the best idea after all. :p
you went to some pretty rubbish places, there are still some good places just avoid the cities they are multicultural hell holes (IMHO)
 
Soldato
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Could you imagine a life where you hear an air raid siren and have to live with the fact that a rocket might be inbound at any second. Anyone you know could be under it.

The rockets are not just physically damaging, they would be extremely stressful, and frankly, I believe a country has a right to stop that.

It must be horrific having a 250$ million dollar defense system which stops most rockets whilst your own country sends text messages before they destroy another countries homes.

Or is it the fact that maybe if your own country stopped stealing land, expanding illegal settlements and illegally blockading their neighbours too much?

All Hamas are asking for is for the blockade to be removed essentially - its the answer to this problem.

Lest people forget Hamas being in power is Israel's own doing - Oppressing a people for so long they had no alternative than to elect a military wing to head its government.....
 
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