Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[Castiel]

I'm sorry, but any neutral person can see that Israel don't benefit in any way from killing children and other civilians. I don't think they do it on purpose. It invites international pressure onto themselves and sullies their reputation.

Which is *exactly* why Hamas puts its weapons in hospitals, schools, and highly populated civilian areas.

As said, Hamas have even done interviews where they openly admit using civilians as human shields.

If you try to frame Israel as the bad guy and Hamas as the good guy, anyone with half a brain will see straight through your agenda/bias.

It is asymmetric warfare, which is common in conflicts whereby the oppressed/weakest faction are fighting a larger, better equipped and tactically superior force. As a neutral person, I do not share your view that the tactics of Hamas justify the disproportionate response from the IDF, or the intentional targeting of civilian structures such as hospitals and schools. Also the use of civilian structures or the fighting in and around civilian structures is not considered as "human shields" if that was the case then we are all guilty of that as most of our military infrastructure, as the IDF is build in and around highly populated areas as a rule.

The issue you have with trying to frame Israel as the "good guy" is not dissimilar from the person trying to frame Hamas as the "bad guy" as both are intentionally using a civilian population to persecute a war, if anything Israel have the greater responsibility as it is an actual State and should abide by the rules and responsibilities inherent in the institutions to which it is a signatory...the disparity in the respective military powers also means that Israel could effectively neutralise the militant threat in Gaza through a limited military policing and initiating a systematic rebuilding of infrastructure and the political processes and institutions through which Gaza and its people currently rely on Hamas to provide as best they can...this would both undermine Hamas and give Israel a real positive position internationally. With this approach Israel need not supply the manpower as the UN could potentially address this with an international force with Israel supply logistical and material support, this might assuage the obvious issues with propriety given the history between the IDF and Gaza.

Effectively, all the time that Israel follow a systematic suppression and annexation of the Gaza strip they are fuelling Hamas support and inviting Militant action into Israel, of course they know this and this is the main sticking point...Likud and conservative Zionists simply do not want the Palestinians (or Arabs in general if you look deep enough into their motivations) in the region at all. Essentially there are no "good guys" here, but the ones with all the power and responsibility to use that power humanely and effectively with minimal loss of civilian life is Israel, particularly given the disparity between Palestinian and Israel civilian casualties in throughout this conflict.

 

[FoxEye]

Ineffectually firing rockets, digging tunnels and using suicide bombers is less "asymmetric warfare", and more like acts of terrorism. Hamas knows that all it can do is provoke Israel into acts of further violence. They are not fighting a war against Israel - if this was a proper war Israel would literally wipe them off the map in hours.

Secondly, no the US and UK doesn't put military assets and ordnance inside schools or hospitals, so I'm really not sure what you're talking about there.

But you're right about there being no good guys, except for those on either side who genuinely want peace. Which isn't the leadership.

 

[Castiel]

Ineffectually firing rockets, digging tunnels and using suicide bombers is less "asymmetric warfare", and more like acts of terrorism. Hamas knows that all it can do is provoke Israel into acts of further violence. They are not fighting a war against Israel - if this was a proper war Israel would literally wipe them off the map in hours.

It is asymmetric warfare by definition.

Secondly, no the US and UK doesn't put military assets and ordnance inside schools or hospitals, so I'm really not sure what you're talking about there.

They do however have military installations in built up civilian areas...ones which would, if targeted, create potentially large scale civilian collateral damage. There is a big thing made of this storing of weapons in civilian structures, given that there are no military structures in Gaza then this is pretty much going to be the case. The point is also that Israel doesn't actually have to target these structures as the impact on Hamas' ability to fight is minimal at best, Israel obviously know this but continue to do so regardless...they also target civilian infrastructure that has no weapons, such as power and residential building, often under the premise that they are the last known position of militant fighters or leaders..this is collective punishment because the family and neighbours of a suspected militant is not a justifiable target simply through association. You would be wrong about the US as well, often Hospitals and other civic municipal buildings do store National Guard materiel. But the point is that if bombing a school that was used to either store or fire a rocket or ak47 is a legitimate target despite the building being full of children then Israel really do not have any legitimacy in their stance that they are ethically superior to Hamas who are firing rockets at civilian cities.

But you're right about there being no good guys, except for those on either side who genuinely want peace. Which isn't the leadership.

The current Israeli leadership do not want a two state solution, they generally do not want a solution at all it would seem. Hamas on the other hand would almost certainly agree to cease hostilities if their demands for a lifting of the blockage were met.

 

[FoxEye]

The current Israeli leadership do not want a two state solution, they generally do not want a solution at all it would seem. Hamas on the other hand would almost certainly agree to cease hostilities if their demands for a lifting of the blockage were met.

You honestly think Hamas wouldn't see that as a victory, and in time make new demands? And when their new demands aren't met, start firing more rockets?

Isn't that precisely what happened in the past? Things were better for a time, Hamas were given money to build infrastructure, etc, and instead used the money to stockpile weapons and munitions. Before resuming random attacks against Israel.

They don't sound like a party committed to peace.

 

[Castiel]

You honestly think Hamas wouldn't see that as a victory, and in time make new demands? And when their new demands aren't met, start firing more rockets?

Whether they see it as a victory or not should not be reason to stop the blockade...equally with their demands, ultimately they demand on behalf of the Palestinian people, their power derives from the legitimacy given by that association, if the demand of the Palestinian people are met and they are effectively that they are given their own Statehood and are free to create their own society then Hamas would lose any legitimacy if they choose to invent further reasons to strike at Israel...Israel was built on this very same principle in the first place.

Isn't that precisely what happened in the past? Things were better for a time, Hamas were given money to build infrastructure, etc, and instead used the money to stockpile weapons and munitions. Before resuming random attacks against Israel.

Israel has never acceded to Hamas' demands to revoke the blockade and recognise the legitimacy of the Palestinian Peoples right to self determination and Statehood.

Israel has never given Hamas money either. It controls the Palestinians money and often confiscates or refuses to release Palestinian funds to them..it effectively controls the economy and supply into Gaza...something that only legitimises Hamas in Palestinian society.

They don't sound like a party committed to peace.

They are a Militant Organisation, not unlike Irgun for example...they are not seeking peace, but a solution to their political and social demands for the cause for which they fight.

 

[LockyOK]

I'm sorry, but any neutral person can see that Israel don't benefit in any way from killing children and other civilians. I don't think they do it on purpose. <CUT>

I think that you will find that it is what is generally known as Ethnic Cleansing.

Israel wants ALL Palestinians to take up their few belongings and go somewhere else, anywhere other than Palestine.

If and when they have achieved that, they will doubtless set about ethnically cleansing Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Nate75]

 

[zoomee]

Back to square one ffs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28862595

 

[Devlish]

Back to square one ffs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28862595

Quoting half way through the story doesnt help anyone. But yes, back to square one, its all very depressing. Lets hope it doesnt go all out again.

http://www.newsweek.com/tel-aviv-diary-hamas-rockets-hit-tel-aviv-ceasefire-collapses-265729

 

[Freefaller]

I know this will be pretty inflammatory to many people but I found it amusing - whilst I know (and my opinions are very clear on this situation) this shouldn't be trivialised I think this would work really well!



Whilst the above is not a real solution, before the Balfour Declaration they proposed Uganda as a home for Zionists... which of course is bonkers - but the above could actually be workable if we think outside of the box.... It'll never happen of course.



Back onto more serious points, for every person they kill, every house they destroy (they being Israel), every man they imprison, 10 Jihadists are created.

I wonder now that Assad is soon to become our friend again if they shouldn't send the Turkish army in to calm things down in the whole region?

 

[shadow_boxer]

Unbelievable how Israel can continue to get away with this completely disproportionate response?!

 

[wingman44115]

Back to square one ffs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28862595

Good, maybe he now knows how it feels when he orders suicide bombers to kill Israelis

 

[wingman44115]

I know this will be pretty inflammatory to many people but I found it amusing - whilst I know (and my opinions are very clear on this situation) this shouldn't be trivialised I think this would work really well!

http://i.imgur.com/ZD0Ym6D.jpg

Whilst the above is not a real solution, before the Balfour Declaration they proposed Uganda as a home for Zionists... which of course is bonkers - but the above could actually be workable if we think outside of the box.... It'll never happen of course.



Back onto more serious points, for every person they kill, every house they destroy (they being Israel), every man they imprison, 10 Jihadists are created.

I wonder now that Assad is soon to become our friend again if they shouldn't send the Turkish army in to calm things down in the whole region?

Surely it would be cheaper to move the Palestinians to somewhere else?

 

[Freefaller]

Surely it would be cheaper to move the Palestinians to somewhere else?

But the Israelis are more at home in the States than the middle east which is where the Palestinian want to be and should be.

Besides it was more of a flippant comment than a serious suggestion. However I think it is genius.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

That's a brilliant solution, Freefaller.

 

[wingman44115]

But the Israelis are more at home in the States than the middle east which is where the Palestinian want to be and should be.

Besides it was more of a flippant comment than a serious suggestion. However I think it is genius.

I don't think the Israelis would say they are more at home in the states than on the land they have lived on for 1000s of years?

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I don't think the Israelis would say they are more at home in the states than on the land they have lived on for 1000s of years?

No one who currently lives in Israel has lived there for 1000s of years, so that's just not true. I think that they'd feel at home because of the guns, Jewish loving, stupid country the US is.

 

[Craterloads]

I don't think the Israelis would say they are more at home in the states than on the land they have lived on for 1000s of years?

Odd, thought most of them moved fairly recently from Europe.

 

[zoomee]

I don't think the Israelis would say they are more at home in the states than on the land they have lived on for 1000s of years?

Its true there was a Jewish kingdom some 2000 years ago. It's also true that other kingdoms and peoples inhabited the place before, during and after the period of Jewish rule, the actual period of Jewish rule amounts to maybe 200 years out of say, 7000 years of history. Zionists may point at King David of biblical fame, but archeological evidence says that even if King David existed, his kingdom was more like a chiefdom, not at all resembling the glorious exaggeration reported in the bible, and he would not have been considered Jewish as he wasn't a monotheist.

Either way - its a pathetic claim - we used to live here thousands of years ago (albiet with others), so its our land. pffft.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

I for one see the difference between horrible contractual damage leading to the death of civilians and purposely targeting civilians with rockets or a suicide bomb on a bus. The intent makes a massive difference in my eyes.

If the level of arms was reversed im sure Hamas wouldn't mind wiping everyone out in Israel out completely. Something itself and at least one other country have said they would love to do.

So I can nether support Hamas or the IDF put if push came to shove I know who I would support.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get shouted down for this post but there you go.