Italian Grand Prix 2011, Monza Circuit - Race 13/19

[dannyjo22]

Also amazing that the 3rd or some would argue 4th best driver is so highly rated by his fellow drivers as well as ex drivers/professionals that have been involved in the sport. It just doesn't make sense.

Of course he's highly rated thats bloody obvious. Gerrard is highly rated but that doesn't make him better than Messi, Rooney or Ronaldo.

Plenty of drivers have been highly rated over the years or champion elect never to ever be the best driver on the grid.

 

[sunama]

It's amazing that the 3rd or some would argue 4th best current driver [Vettel] in f1 ...

Vettel = 3rd or 4th best?

For me, given his consistency and his record breaking performances, Vettel is right up there with Alonso now and if Vettel continues at his current rate, it will be difficult to argue against him being the absolute best that F1 has to offer.

The guy just isn't making any mistakes. He is amazing.

I predicted that in the middle of the season, Vettel will suffer from a drop in form. Well, he did and I believe that lasted for 4 races. Since then Vettel has won back to back races. The guy is back on form and this is now likely to continue for the rest of the year.

The best way to compare just how good a driver really is, is to compare him with his team-mate. Right now the 2 top men amongst the leading teams, look to be Alonso and Vettel, who are absolutely destroying their team-mates.

Last year, I remember people said that if Hamilton or Alonso were in Vettel's place, they would've won the title very early on in the season. This is a good argument and I would agree. However, this year, Vettel has been outstanding and I am not convinced if anyone other than Alonso could've scored more points than Vettel.

Although he is young and still learning his trade, for me Vettel is already right up there alongside Alonso and ahead of every other F1 driver. If he can win another 9-12 races next year, in terms of total race wins, by the end of next year, he would classified as one of the all-time greats (at the age of 23?)

If I were Hamilton, I would be asking his management/agent to get him in an RBR at ANY cost. Even if he has to drive for free...do it. Hamilton is wasting the best years of his F1 career, in a team which don't seem to have any strategy in place to beat Vettel.

At least Ferrari are now backing Alonso, 100% to maximise his points total...what are McLaren doing? Nothing, is the answer. They are allowing both drivers to take points off of each other and content to produce cars which start the season down on the speed. Content to attempt to outscore Vettel in the 2nd half of the season (which I don't think is possible any-more due to Vettel's improved skill level).

With regards to the Button vs Hamilton debate: I would say Hamilton is a driver who is definitely more likely to score more points than Button, over a single season and hence I would rate him as the better driver, HOWEVER, currently Button is in great form and is currently outscoring Hamilton. By the end of the year, I expect the status quo to be re-established and I expect Hamilton to finish this year's title race ahead of his team-mate.

 

[dannyjo22]

The guy just isn't making any mistakes. He is amazing.

Funnily enough when the cars around him have actually had a chance to put him under pressure he's cracked. Many times in 09,10 and this year.

He's simply in a car that's in a class of it's own. That Webber has had an awful year and has the same number of points as Button and only 5 less than Alonso tells you how far above the pack the Red Bull is.

Red Bull simply have built a car that seems to work every where. Even on tracks they are not supposed to shine they have.

He still has 0.5 advantage in qualifying despite Hamilton and Alonso giving it all they have in inferior equipment. With that kind of advantage it's easy to keep your nose clean.

For stages of the races Alonso can hang on, if the roles where reveresed I doubt very much Vettel would be able to hang onto Alonso.

I agree Hamilton has to get himself in the same car but I really don't think Vettel would survive long before the toys came out the pram.

 

[Kenai]

if Vettel continues at his current rate, it will be difficult to argue against him being the absolute best that F1 has to offer.

On the contrary I think it would be foolish to bestow such a title on a driver who is clearly in vastly quicker machinery than his competitors are.

He's driving well no doubt but the best in F1? I don't think he is there yet, he's winning races largely by virtue of being in an incredibly good car and we still haven't really seen much of him under pressure or properly racing for his wins. The times we have seen him pressured where his car hasn't been leaps ahead he has struggled and made mistakes.

Sure, getting out the front and staying there is the way you want to win races but being able to do that because your car is just that much quicker than anyone else doesn't make someone the best driver in F1 IMO, more a beneficiary of being a good component of the best team. He's part of the absolute best package F1 has to offer, not a single doubt about that, but as a driver, independent from that Red Bull? Really not convinced yet.

Sometimes you need to look beyond the numbers, something you don't often seem to do, as they don't necessarily tell the full picture.

 

[3dcandy]

Vettel = 3rd or 4th best?

For me, given his consistency and his record breaking performances, Vettel is right up there with Alonso now and if Vettel continues at his current rate, it will be difficult to argue against him being the absolute best that F1 has to offer.

The guy just isn't making any mistakes. He is amazing.

I predicted that in the middle of the season, Vettel will suffer from a drop in form. Well, he did and I believe that lasted for 4 races. Since then Vettel has won back to back races. The guy is back on form and this is now likely to continue for the rest of the year.

The best way to compare just how good a driver really is, is to compare him with his team-mate. Right now the 2 top men amongst the leading teams, look to be Alonso and Vettel, who are absolutely destroying their team-mates.

Last year, I remember people said that if Hamilton or Alonso were in Vettel's place, they would've won the title very early on in the season. This is a good argument and I would agree. However, this year, Vettel has been outstanding and I am not convinced if anyone other than Alonso could've scored more points than Vettel.

Although he is young and still learning his trade, for me Vettel is already right up there alongside Alonso and ahead of every other F1 driver. If he can win another 9-12 races next year, in terms of total race wins, by the end of next year, he would classified as one of the all-time greats (at the age of 23?)

If I were Hamilton, I would be asking his management/agent to get him in an RBR at ANY cost. Even if he has to drive for free...do it. Hamilton is wasting the best years of his F1 career, in a team which don't seem to have any strategy in place to beat Vettel.

At least Ferrari are now backing Alonso, 100% to maximise his points total...what are McLaren doing? Nothing, is the answer. They are allowing both drivers to take points off of each other and content to produce cars which start the season down on the speed. Content to attempt to outscore Vettel in the 2nd half of the season (which I don't think is possible any-more due to Vettel's improved skill level).

With regards to the Button vs Hamilton debate: I would say Hamilton is a driver who is definitely more likely to score more points than Button, over a single season and hence I would rate him as the better driver, HOWEVER, currently Button is in great form and is currently outscoring Hamilton. By the end of the year, I expect the status quo to be re-established and I expect Hamilton to finish this year's title race ahead of his team-mate.

No shocks there really, I do agree with some of what you say. Hamilton's problem is that IF Button beats him this year he will no longer be regarded as a great talent by the general public. Button's stock is rising, Hamilton's is falling. He should be beating Button but he's currently not. At this rate McLaren might start favouring JB over LH a lot more. It would be pretty difficult for LH to recover from that kind of setback unless he completely and utterly dominates JB in 2012, something I can't actually see happening now.

 

[pingwing]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14874360.stm

Ted with a funny interview with Eddie Irvine there

 

[sunama]

Funnily enough when the cars around him have actually had a chance to put him under pressure he's cracked. Many times in 09,10 and this year.

You cannot compare the Vettel of pre-2011 with his current performance/skill level.
Last year I would've rated Vettel at around No.4
This year however, he has raised his game.
I only remember him making 1 mistake and that was in Canada, when Button (arguably the best wet weather driver in F1) put him under immense pressure. Bear in mind though, that this was during Vettel's dip in form, which lasted, I think, for 4 races, where even Webber out qualified him. Once that dip in form was over...it was business as usual (ie. pole position + race win).

IMO, during the middle of the season, RBR did not have the fastest RACE car. Yet, Vettel was still able to win in it. Based on Monza and Spa, I think RBR have pulled out a bit of an advantage.

Today, Hamilton could've challenged Vettel, but he made a few mistakes:
1. he got caught napping at the re-start, allowing MSc to overtake him
2. when he did manage to overtake MSc, MSc immediately re-took Hamilton. Hamilton should've driven more defensively, after he did the overtake.
3. after the overtake, he and his team decided to bring him in for a pit-stop, which brought him out right behind MSc...again.

Now, lets look at Vettel:
He got taken by Alonso and was running in 2nd. He then despatched Alonso with a good overtake. The overtake was quick and efficient. When the question was asked of Vettel...he answered it with aplomb.

Alonso was in the 3rd best car and as such did the best job he could possibly do.

The argument that 'Vettel is in the best car, hence anything he does counts for nothing' is nonsense. Does this mean that if a driver is ever in the best car, no matter how well he drives, he cannot be classed as the best? Strange that when Senna was in the best car and beating everyone, people happily acknowledged his skill, yet when Vettel does the same thing, people have the gall to argue against Vettel's ability. Very strange.

The scary thing is that Vettel is still young and is still improving (there has been a big improvement from 2009 to 2010 and then from 2010 to 2011). It is quite possible that we shall see another step forward in 2012.

 

[sunama]

Hamilton's problem is that IF Button beats him this year he will no longer be regarded as a great talent by the general public.

Indeed.

It is VERY important for Hamilton to beat Button this year.

Correct me if I am wrong, but of all the drivers of the 3 leading teams, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are the only ones who can boast that they have never been out-scored by a team-mate, over the course of a full F1 season.

 

[Kenai]

The argument that 'Vettel is in the best car, hence anything he does counts for nothing' is nonsense. Does this mean that if a driver is ever in the best car, no matter how well he drives, he cannot be classed as the best? Strange that when Senna was in the best car and beating everyone, people happily acknowledged his skill, yet when Vettel does the same thing, people have the gall to argue against Vettel's ability. Very strange.

Complete straw man, that's not what people are arguing at all.

What people are getting at, is that Vettel has landed in an astounding car and gone on and got astounding results. It is very rare we have seen his racing come into play to go out and get race wins. Whilst that is the case, we can see he is a good driver but it's too difficult to jump straight to 'the best driver in F1'.

It's not that it counts for nothing, but nor does winning from the front in the best car that is qualifying over half a second faster than rivals and even Webber can pull fastest laps in make someone the best driver in F1.

A very good driver? Clearly. The best racing driver in Formula 1 today? No, I don't think he's done anywhere near enough to prove that yet.

You could argue he did more to show his great driving ability when he was in a Toro Rosso than he has this year in the Red Bull.

 

[Lopéz]

1. he got caught napping at the re-start, allowing MSc to overtake him

Napping? He was sound asleep in the land of nod, very disappointing.

 

[mmj_uk]

It is VERY important for Hamilton to beat Button this year.

Correct me if I am wrong, but of all the drivers of the 3 leading teams, Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are the only ones who can boast that they have never been out-scored by a team-mate, over the course of a full F1 season.

Even if Button gets more points this season it doesn't alter the fact that Hamilton is a faster driver. Button will NEVER win another championship unless he can sort out his poor qualifying pace, whereas all Hamilton has to do is stop making silly errors (which will come naturally when he's no longer driver the wheels off chasing a car that is 1sec a lap faster).

If Hamilton was simply driving every race to finish ahead of Button he'd be 50-100pts clear by now, his target is Vettel and as an aggressive driver he has an 'all or nothing' mindset which at the moment is making him look poor.

 

[Slam62]

McL have been playing catch up since race one, used to work in F1 if you had a small dynamic team

Re Hamilton and Button, I think Hammi has been very unfortunate this year mainly due to being frustrated with the car. Button keeps a level head and is very fast as well.

Hammi needs to focus more on himself and making his situation better.

Whilst I am very impressed with Vettel, I don't think his team mate is as good as people like to think, until they come up against a great team mate, you can't really tell how good a driver is.

 

[Mr Jack]

Napping? He was sound asleep in the land of nod, very disappointing.

Yup. Completely narfed his race too. His setup was too low on straight line speed, so although he had the theoretically fastest car he couldn't get past Schumi and deliver it on track.

Interesting that the McLarens got a 1-2 on the fastest laps. Admittedly Vettel wasn't exactly being pushed towards the end, so he probably didn't show what he could do, but it's still a fair gap from Button to Vettel. And 4th fastest lap? Bruno Senna!

 

[Duke]

Both Mclarens were too slow on the straight. Topping out in the gears at 330 when Toro Rosso were doing 340 KM/H.

 

[dannyjo22]

Strange that when Senna was in the best car and beating everyone, people happily acknowledged his skill, yet when Vettel does the same thing, people have the gall to argue against Vettel's ability. Very strange.[/B].

Senna is regarded as one of the greatest of all times for what he did in cars that were not the best in the field rather than what he did in the mclaren that won 15 of 16 races.

The drives to get himself in positions where he had no right. Getting cars on pole with super human efforts. Not getting a car 0.5 to 1 second better than the rest on pole and winning.

Having the best car on the grid is not Vettels fault and he's using it effectively. This though does not make him the best driver on the grid. The jury will always be out until the cars are more evenly matched or he gets a top drawer team mate. Something that cannot be levelled at Alonso, Hamilton or Button.

 

[FrankJH]

Even if Button gets more points this season it doesn't alter the fact that Hamilton is a faster driver. Button will NEVER win another championship unless he can sort out his poor qualifying pace, whereas all Hamilton has to do is stop making silly errors (which will come naturally when he's no longer driver the wheels off chasing a car that is 1sec a lap faster).

If Hamilton was simply driving every race to finish ahead of Button he'd be 50-100pts clear by now, his target is Vettel and as an aggressive driver he has an 'all or nothing' mindset which at the moment is making him look poor.

Ive never read so much utter **** in my whole life (after deciding to ignore a few people on here)

1) Why is qualifying performance harder to sort out than "silly errors"? Its not . If anything its exactly the opposite ( as "silly errors" cover a multitude of different things)

2) Button has proved that he can beat Lewis in all conditions - which is something that was not even considered a mere 18 months ago (well to be fair most were saying JB would NEVER beat Lewis at all, and thats already been resoundly disproven).

3) Button always finishes the race unless the team /the car lets him down (or someone crashes into him). 9/10 when LH doesnt finish (or has a bad race) its down to errors in the cockpit

4) Your 2nd paragraph proves how little you know about motor-racing (and in particular F1 - as this is mentioned nearly every race) - Every SINGLE f1 driver FIRST and FOREMOST wants to beat their team mate (thats without considering the 20 - 30 points JB has lost this season becuase of the team)



Without doubt if LH (and for that matter Alonso) could go through every race JUST on the softer tyres - then maybe they would come out ahead of JB, but that isnt the case. Over full race distance with current rules JB has a VERY good chance of being 2nd this season - and in a significantly weaker car to the champion (and nothing JB , or anyone else for that matter) could do about it.

The Red Bull is just that much better over the majority of the tracks.

Re Hamilton and Button, I think Hammi has been very unfortunate this year mainly due to being frustrated with the car. Button keeps a level head and is very fast as well.

.

Hamilton has also been VERY lucky in the respect that when McLaren mess up with him he still collects a handful of points - when they mess up with JB its instant retirement both times.

 

[Kenai]

1) Why is qualifying performance harder to sort out than "silly errors"? Its not . If anything its exactly the opposite ( as "silly errors" cover a multitude of different things)

Because silly errors is down to attitude, something you can easily improve if you put the effort in, hell a lot of the time it will happen from just growing up a bit.

Qualifying performance though, you're driving the car the fastest you possibly can, when you've been driving an F1 car for years and years as Button has, it's unlikely you can somehow make a significant improvement in your ability to go out and spank out the best time you can in a single lap.

 

[FrankJH]

Hamilton is hardly going to be happy when yet again Mclaren cannot build a title challenging car, Button is because as but said he's achieved all he wants from f1 and if he doesn't win another title so be it..

If you believe that is still the case (if it ever was - rather than just a friendly line for the media while joining a new team with a "darling" in the other seat) then I guess it cant be true about McLaren offering JB a VERY long contract imminently, because for one Ron Dennis / Whitmarsh wouldnt have someone like that in their car for ANY reason at all

Because silly errors is down to attitude, something you can easily improve if you put the effort in, hell a lot of the time it will happen from just growing up a bit.

Qualifying performance though, you're driving the car the fastest you possibly can, when you've been driving an F1 car for years and years as Button has, it's unlikely you can somehow make a significant improvement in your ability to go out and spank out the best time you can in a single lap.

If it takes him 5 years "to grow up a bit" ....and he still has more to do, he certainly isnt the driver everyone thinks

Obviously 3rd on the grid was bad, and as the team have admitted Spa was their mistake, - in a car AT BEST 3rd best on the grid - JB seems to be doing reasonably well.... with several more chances before the end of the year to prove it will continue like this going forward. Personally imo JB needs to improve getting off the line, he is probably the one who loses the most positions in the first corner or two , if he could do that this would make a lot bigger difference imo than any quali errors

 

[arknor]

Also amazing that the 3rd or some would argue 4th best driver is so highly rated by his fellow drivers as well as ex drivers/professionals that have been involved in the sport. It just doesn't make sense.

Random fact of the day: Had the old F1 points systems remained Vettel in his last 7 races for Toro Rosso would've only scored 1 less point than Hamilton has managed in his last 7 races for McLaren. That Toro Rosso must've been some car in it's day

or hamilton has been really bad this last 7 races

 

[Reaper 392]

Personally imo JB needs to improve getting off the line, he is probably the one who loses the most positions in the first corner or two....

that honour goes to webber, however as a hammy fan i havent really been paying much attention to buttons starts so i'll take your word for it

anyone remember the name of the site that tells you overtakes made at the start?