Man of Honour
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In poor conditions with the team taking a wet weather gamble. Not saying he didn't do well that day, but it wasn't ALL him.
Italian Grand Prix 2011, Monza Circuit - Race 13/19
- Thread starter Duke
- Start date
In poor conditions with the team taking a wet weather gamble. Not saying he didn't do well that day, but it wasn't ALL him.
Soldato
The problem for Hamilton, as I see it (which is probably wrong and I am sure that y'all will tell me repeatedly), is that he is a fast driver, but beyond that, he is something of a one trick pony. Give him a fast car, and yes, he flies, give him an average car, and he gets frustrated, makes mistakes, drives into things, and generally leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of people around him (see various criticisms from other drivers).
On the other hand, Button has had a decade in the business, is an experienced and calm driver, with experience as both a team leader in a championship team, as a second driver in a championship team, and as a development driver for more average teams. While driving for Honda, he repeatedly said, that he thought of it more as a development drive than anything else, and I believe that has put him in a great position with McLaren, they know that in Jenson, they have a driver that can deliver the results, will consistently bring the car home in good points finishes, is able to make his own decisions about the way the race is progressing (seems to me, that a lot of the real screwups in qualifying have been a result of him letting the engineers tell him what to do). And most of all, can help develop the car, which Lewis I am afraid, just doesn't have enough experience to do.
Add into that, the fact that Jenson is very good at handling the pressure of publicity events and takes it all in his stride, whereas lewis has a tendency to run and hide, and you have, for McLaren at least, an ideal driver.
From McLaren's point of view, they have a problem, JB is the ideal package for them, experienced, consistent, reliable, and plays the corporate game very well. LH is faster, but more prone to inconsistent results. What they are having this year, is a reverse of what RB have, they have the young flier who is extremely consistent, and the second driver (sorry Webber, but that's what you are), who is slower, suffers more inconcistency, but still scores highly enough to keep the other teams at bay.
I am beginning to think, that the perfect combination, irregardless of team, would be Vettel and Button, but we know that won't happen. (I discount fred, because although he's a genius driver, he's too egocentric and cannot stand having a teammate who is anywhere near as fast).
On the other hand, Button has had a decade in the business, is an experienced and calm driver, with experience as both a team leader in a championship team, as a second driver in a championship team, and as a development driver for more average teams. While driving for Honda, he repeatedly said, that he thought of it more as a development drive than anything else, and I believe that has put him in a great position with McLaren, they know that in Jenson, they have a driver that can deliver the results, will consistently bring the car home in good points finishes, is able to make his own decisions about the way the race is progressing (seems to me, that a lot of the real screwups in qualifying have been a result of him letting the engineers tell him what to do). And most of all, can help develop the car, which Lewis I am afraid, just doesn't have enough experience to do.
Add into that, the fact that Jenson is very good at handling the pressure of publicity events and takes it all in his stride, whereas lewis has a tendency to run and hide, and you have, for McLaren at least, an ideal driver.
From McLaren's point of view, they have a problem, JB is the ideal package for them, experienced, consistent, reliable, and plays the corporate game very well. LH is faster, but more prone to inconsistent results. What they are having this year, is a reverse of what RB have, they have the young flier who is extremely consistent, and the second driver (sorry Webber, but that's what you are), who is slower, suffers more inconcistency, but still scores highly enough to keep the other teams at bay.
I am beginning to think, that the perfect combination, irregardless of team, would be Vettel and Button, but we know that won't happen. (I discount fred, because although he's a genius driver, he's too egocentric and cannot stand having a teammate who is anywhere near as fast).
Maybe they wont put him on LH wages - but seeing as both their current contracts end in 2012, I wouldnt be surprised if they get closer (unless Lewis REALLY manages to turn it around next season and win the WDC, but no proof that will happen yet)
Personally Ive never found any foundation to "overcompensating" what ever driver you are talking about - apart from it being an excuse by their fans
Anyone good enough to be in F1 knows the best way to get the maximum out of their car, and over driving will only ever be slower than driving at 99,9% of capacity
There were even good examples from MS and LH himself either missing a gear change or out breaking themselves , it may work in athletics (getting the spirit from the crowd as it were) but with mechanical parts it will ALWAYS be slower
Of course the likes of Massa can be effected, as drivers like this arent getting anywhere near the 99.9% to start with, and I can agree that the immaculate start from Alsonso will have been helped by the start, but this is a momentary difference, the natural pace became evident pretty soon.
No dispute, the Willlams , Renault , Honda (and even for 1/2 the season with the Brawn) JB has been given pretty average cars (or cars with little development). But this also helps when getting INTO a championship winnable car
There is no proof at all that in a better McLaren LH would undoubtedly win - that complete fiction. No foundation to this at all. Very possibly LH might outqualify JB, but more often than not it would also be so little difference to not make a jot on race day. Points arent given out on Sat after all - JB has already proven many times that he can beat Lewis to the finish after starting further back.
So how come the last two or three times Lewis and JB have been wheel to wheel, the latter has won every time (and they arent wheel to wheel that many times). Hungary, Spa and yesterday 100% JB. Ok so previous to that LH has won , but its not the certainty you implied at all any more.
You would purposefully give up your championship leader (in the team) - who has every chance currently of finishing 2nd in the championship (given Ferrari's current hatred for the harder tyres). Maybe on a forum you would - but not in real life. Not with the other driver also causing unquestionable embarassment to the team and sponsors several times this season also.
There is also the point that there are few drivers around today that could get as many championship points from the current McLaren, that are available and would want to join the team. 100% finishing record (from a drivers point of view) is hard to equal, and hard to argue with given the number of races already completed.
There is absolutely NO logic that suddenly LH would get more from the same equipment if it was better (as long as they got identical equipment). There is absolutely NO foundation to that at all.
It could be argued that LH'x experience at ONLY winning with McLaren is a hindrance compared to Jenson's winning with 2 (or 3 if you classify Honda and Brawn as two different entities, as the cars were particularly different)
Caporegime
You seem to be working for a point of equal comparisons when there is no such thing in formula one. You seem to say that button has proved himself the better driver by overtaking lewis and making the overtake of Schumacher look easy when that has nothing to do with lewis' driving skill.
Button overtook with ease. Any driver in the championship would have made it in the maclaren car. Lewis had been unable to overtake because of the speed of the mercedes and schumachers driving / breaking the rules. Had the roles been reversed and button had been in front, lewis would have done the same.
Pretty much everyone in formula one would say that lewis is the better driver and to me, lewis' issues come from having a car that is on the cusp of competing with the red bull. He feels he can beat them if he drives a blinder. Driving like that comes with risks however.
There is a lot of luck to formula one unless you have the best car. Lewis has had some bad luck and so has Jenson, but I would say that Jenson has had more luck with random outcomes than Lewis. Things like being in the right position at the right time to take advantage of others tire wear etc. Lewis is always scrapping at the front which is much harder on the car.
what a rubbish argument...it's often said you make your own luck and Lewis simply failed in his efforts to overtake Schuey and killed his tires...his choice to keep trying to pass, made an overtake and let him past...Button simply drove a better race and made the pass stick, face it, he made Lewis look poor. He also overtook Alonso as did Vettel...Lewis couldn't do that. Lewis scrapping at the front makes no difference, his choice if he keeps it close or hangs back and waits...he's not an intelligent driver, he's full on 100% and it cost him big time. Jenson waited, caught them and passed them...simple. Even Schuey couldn't believe Hamilton couldn't make it stick...
In your post you say anyone could have passed in the mclaren..well everyone but Hamilton could cos he failed until it was far too late. Make your mind up!
In your post you say anyone could have passed in the mclaren..well everyone but Hamilton could cos he failed until it was far too late. Make your mind up!
actually having spoken to my mates, all of them, including the Ham fans said what a poor race he had, and they all agree that his bad decisions this season are coming back to haunt him. A couple even conceded that they felt Button might beat him this season and one believes that Jenson is a better driver than Hamilton now and that he never saw that coming...
only just watched the race from getting back from london.
another easy win for vettel.
happy hamilton finished
if he didnt lock up coming up to buemi i think he would have had a good run at alonso.
next race if vettel wins is he officially champ?
another easy win for vettel.
happy hamilton finished
if he didnt lock up coming up to buemi i think he would have had a good run at alonso.
next race if vettel wins is he officially champ?
This is why I believe that the best way forward for Hamilton is to perhaps have the radio man play a bigger part in the decision making process. He must do for Hamilton, what Smeddley does for Massa.
If you noticed in the last race, Button hung back for many laps, while Hamilton and MSc were ruining their tyres. Button waited (playing the long game).
When he felt that those 2 had killed their tyres, he moved forward and waited. Within a few laps, Hamilton was forced off the track by MSc, which is when Button pounced. He then quickly despatched MSc, made it stick and drove away.
It was almost as if Button knew the exact lap at which point Hamilton would end up going off the track.
What I also found ridiculous, was when McLaren pitted Hamilton, just so that he could come out behind MSc...again. Am I the only one thinking that McLaren's supercomputer and their "boffins" are terrible at their job? It's almost as if they trying to put Hamilton behind MSc, after the pitstop.
I'd agree, McLaren have been lacking this year on that side...like bringing Jenson in a lap early during qually at Spa, JB even said are you sure? There are lots of times they messed up....that's hurting them more than their car at the moment
So in a comparison of the wheel-to-wheel racing abilities of the two drivers you pick:
Hungary 2011 - So off the grid Hamilton stayed ahead of button, he then pulled away slightly, got past Vettel and pulled away a lot to get a large margin over Button. He then spun like a n00b allowing Button to catch up, for a lap or two they were racing wheel to wheel (which is the bit we're comparing yes?) and at the 'end' of it Hamilton was ahead and was called in to pit for intermediates (which was dumb) and Button won the race.
So when comparing the wheel-to-wheel racing section how exactly did Button come out on top?
Spa 2011 - Unless I'm mistaken they were never anywhere near each other, Button started 13th, got caught up in the Senna incident at the start and pitted for a new nose and changed tyres, by the time Button may have been anywhere near Hamilton, Hamilton had been a n00b and thrown it into the barrier?
Monza 2011 - Ah, now we actually have a segment where they were side by side, and afterwards and until the end of the race, Button was ahead. Lets just ignore the bit that the only way for Button to not get ahead would've meant braking during a flat out kink/corner due to the mistake by Hamilton/Schumacher forcing him off the road.
So out of your 3 examples there's one, dubious, example of Button beating Hamilton in wheel-to-wheel racing, good choices.
Did they have a choice? He could either have followed Schumacher into the pits (when I believe they were waiting for him) and stayed behind, or stayed out longer than he did whilst lapping slower and end up further behind (the lap between those two options Button pitted)?
MSC blinker first.
With piereli tyres you need to pit first. If your behind you need to pit first.
MSC pitted first so he gained the lead.
While Hamilton was weaving behind MSc, it was plain to see he was much faster than MSc. Even MSc said that after MSc released Hamilton, Hamilton pulled away from him at an astonishing rate.
If your driver is stuck behind an obviously slower car, it is up to the team strategists (you know those people who are alleged to be super intelligent and have access to some sort of super computer) to change something...anything. You don't just sit there while you watch your driver - who is obviously quicker - sit behind a much slower driver and get frustrated. It is up to you to change something.
In football, for instance, most managers will start off with their best 11 players. However, if something isn't working, he will change something...even if it means bringing on a lesser player, in exchange for a better player.
When I was watching Hamilton behind MSc, I was thinking one thing - pit Hamilton. Pit him early (1-2 laps ahead of MSc), so that at least Hamilton will leap frog MSc.
The worst case scenario would've been that if Hamilton pitted 2 laps earlier, he would've struggled for 2 laps, as his tyres would've been shot towards the end of the 2nd stint.
McLaren were lucky that Hamilton didn't crash out yesterday.
If your driver is stuck behind an obviously slower car, it is up to the team strategists (you know those people who are alleged to be super intelligent and have access to some sort of super computer) to change something...anything. You don't just sit there while you watch your driver - who is obviously quicker - sit behind a much slower driver and get frustrated. It is up to you to change something.
In football, for instance, most managers will start off with their best 11 players. However, if something isn't working, he will change something...even if it means bringing on a lesser player, in exchange for a better player.
When I was watching Hamilton behind MSc, I was thinking one thing - pit Hamilton. Pit him early (1-2 laps ahead of MSc), so that at least Hamilton will leap frog MSc.
The worst case scenario would've been that if Hamilton pitted 2 laps earlier, he would've struggled for 2 laps, as his tyres would've been shot towards the end of the 2nd stint.
McLaren were lucky that Hamilton didn't crash out yesterday.
I honestly on reflection do not think Jenson waited. My reasons for this are when MS and Lewis started going hammer and tongs Jenson couldn't match their pace. Brundle even mentioned that Jenson was not able to gain as he thought. He didn't gain very quickly on them at all. Bit by bit as they killed the tyres.
He then was in a prime position to have ago when both drivers had killed their tyres. I think things fell into Jensons lap slightly. Again that's not his fault, had Hamilton not been asleep and not allowed MS to get passed him on the restart I don't think Button would have got near him and would have ended up having the tyre eating trouble with MS himself.
I hate these tyres, I've said from the begining they don't reward 2 or 3 laps of hard battling. The loss from tyre life isn't worth the extra gains in getting passed with pitstop windows not far away.
Far play to them, Button and Alonso have twigged this early. Don't bother racing too hard, run at a predetermined set pace and you make better gains that racing. If you need to pass use a DRS zone.
Alonso for me has let cars go this year and not made life too difficult for his own tyres where in years gone past he could be a bitch to pass.
Clearly they have adapted much better to the way things are these days.
in a post race interview JB said he tried waiting for a bit and then decided he'd have to attack, but didn't go 100% else he'd have killed the tyres. It was a good bit of timing granted, but he had better traction, took them both and then could choose his pitstop because he was lead McLaren. Maybe a bit lucky, but as said above JB and Alonso seem to have twigged the tyres a bit better than others.
Pitting 2 laps before the time Hamilton actually did would not have put Hamilton in a bad position, with regards to overall race strategy. Doing this would not have required an extra pit stop.
2 laps of a 53 lap race would not have made much difference.
To wait for MSc to pit, then pit 1 or 2 laps later was ridiculous. Even I knew that this strategy would bring Hamilton right out, just behind MSc.
Like I said earlier, it was almost as if McLaren were trying to get Hamilton back out behind MSc. That's how bad their strategists are. Those strategists were lucky that Hamilton didn't even up crashing out. while he battled with MSc, lap after lap.
They should've done their best to put Hamilton completely out of sync with MSc. In actuality, they did the complete opposite.
Associate
I think someone on the show said that if Vettel wins at Singapore, Alonso must come at least third or, failing that, Button/Webber must come at least second. I haven't done the maths to check for myself, though.
The brawn lost it's edge as they gave up developing it about 2/3 of the way through the season to concentrate on next years car. Ross brawn decided the car had enough in it to make it to the end of the year and jenson still to win the championships. And he was right. Just.
Soldato
I thought it was more to do with Brawn not having the resources or money to continue developing the car quicker than the teams around him Misschief?