Jack Straw has the right idea!
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Soldato
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6036377.stm
Yes, Brown backs Straw...
I want Boris and Cameron to have a say
Yes, Brown backs Straw...
I want Boris and Cameron to have a say
Soldato
cleanbluesky said:
I wonder though, will we start "Frenching" it up at all.. given that the number 2 is backing it and i dare say a majority of backbenchers... would it get passed into law or would it be dismissed under the EU Human Rights Act (which France would be in breach of should this happen)
>| Raoh |<
Man of Honour
I've come in quite late on this..
Good for Straw.. It's about time someone stood up for the values of Britain and what thousands think but never speak.
It's about time that some groups started to integrate rather than keeping themselves distant. What annoys me is that we'd be expected to respect ways of life should it be the other way round.
Good for Straw.. It's about time someone stood up for the values of Britain and what thousands think but never speak.
It's about time that some groups started to integrate rather than keeping themselves distant. What annoys me is that we'd be expected to respect ways of life should it be the other way round.
Suspended
Admiral Huddy said:
Oh no, not another one!
Man of Honour
Chronos-X said:Oh no, not another one!
haha
your constructive point is?
Soldato
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Chronos-X said:
Yup, there can be only one culprit and that's the Daily Mail of course. BTW, did you have anything of substance to contribute to the thread?
Man of Honour
cleanbluesky said:
Sorry, who is that intended for ?
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Admiral Huddy said:
It was dry sarcasm aimed at Chronos-X, it wasn't a dig at you. To get you up to speed, Chronos-X is a really nice guy when it comes to the music forum but when it comes to GD and SC he has a habit of reading a thread, deciding that everyone in there doesn't think exactly the same way as him and then posting "SEND THEM ALL BACK
" or some comment about the Daily Mail in a churlish attempt to parody
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Admiral Huddy said:
Me of course.. although I don't see where the Daily Mail comes into it.
Chronos-X said:
I'm not sure where 99% of your posts fit into the debate(s) personally.
In a debate about integration you post another childish comment and a picture of a scarecrow.
I guess that you think that you are witty, funny, amusing, clever and so on because you try to imitate Visages style of useless posting with over the top and silly comments. It doesn't work partly because you're simply imitating someone else and partly because it is old and partly because you're rubbish at it.
Associate
I would like to hear people's perception on the quote from many MP's comments; "a proper debate".
Does that sound vacuous to some people? Ok, let us have the debate, what if the concenus or logical answer is to remove the veils from muslims, how is that going to be acheived? Will the muslim women say "ahh you have presented a logical arguement so I will back down and remove it to allow me to integrate further!", nope. Are the government going to introduce a ban on full veils? Nope.
So effectively, if we "decide" it is a "bad" thing AND no change is going to occur, why have the "debate" anyway? Is it a stalling tactic on behalf on the governement, to allow the majority to slowly accept it? Or a sweeping under the carpet method?
Does that sound vacuous to some people? Ok, let us have the debate, what if the concenus or logical answer is to remove the veils from muslims, how is that going to be acheived? Will the muslim women say "ahh you have presented a logical arguement so I will back down and remove it to allow me to integrate further!", nope. Are the government going to introduce a ban on full veils? Nope.
So effectively, if we "decide" it is a "bad" thing AND no change is going to occur, why have the "debate" anyway? Is it a stalling tactic on behalf on the governement, to allow the majority to slowly accept it? Or a sweeping under the carpet method?
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Van_Dammesque said:
Starting conversation is a "proper debate" and also, claiming that all he wants is a "proper debate" is a polite way of saying he wants to publicly criticise Islam.
Jack Straw has chosen to nail his colours to the mast, and in such a unashamed way that he has (I hate to say this) gone up in my esteem. He has chosen to claim veils are an integration issue, becasue in the public mind it borders on politically incorrect for Muslims to remain segregated (multicultural communitiy etc. etc.) so he can maintain his position with as little scope for criticism as possible.
He has carefully avoided calling it sexist (which it is), calling it opressive (which it is) and he has concentrated on the fundamental parts of human communication that it hinders (rather than culturally specific problems).
Man of Honour
cleanbluesky said:
Well said, Segregation is not exactly helping their community.
I think the point JS is making is that it should be considered rather than laying down policy, which is not to be confused.
Soldato
i dont like the veil but one thing that bugs me is when people say its oppressive, well they choose to wear it themselves. no1 forces them to wear it.
there are quite a few muslim parents who actually forbid their daughters from wearing such clothes.
there are quite a few muslim parents who actually forbid their daughters from wearing such clothes.
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B&W said:
The worst kinds of opression are those that people choose. For example, many British women in the UK still have ideas that they should behave certain ways i.e. "a woman's place is in the kitchen", now if a woman accepts this, it doesn't mean that they are not opressed. Another fine example of sexism is the way in which women's reproductive organs and cycles are viewed, it is far more common for a woman to have hers surgically removed than for a man to have his testes removed or operated upon.
I expect that there are, just as I expect that there are muslim families that would coerce members of their family to wear one. bear in mind that Straw's comments were held against veil wearers rather than all muslims.
Caporegime
B&W said:
Same here i dont like the veil or the burkha, i do find it oppressive but if a woman chooses to wear it then so be it....plus you can still dress moderatley without having to wear the burkha or veil etc. I dont like parents who force their daughters to wear one either and i make it quite clear to them that what they are doing is against islam...forcing them to wear one...i have a few uncles that seem to think its their god given right to make their daughters ie my cousins wear it...i just think its pathetic of them tbh. It should always be a choice of the woman concerned whether she wears one or not. Mind you my gf is contemplating on wearing a hijaab, not the same as a veil but im still in 2 minds about it as i cannot stop her but that doesnt stop me from not liking it.
As far as im concerned if i have a daughter then she can choose to wear one, if she doesnt then thats her choice but one thing i wouldnt want or allow is my daughter to dress like a **** like most young women these days think its ok to do...just asking for trouble if you ask me.
On another note that bug eyed idiot called Salman Rushdie, who still thinks hes a muslim has also voiced his opinion saying the veil 'sucks' lol. It would be wise of him to keep his pathetic little mouth shut before someone puts another fatwah on him and therefore costing us taxpayers millions of pounds to make sure his security and well being is looked after.
Soldato
VIRII said:
imo thats not true, i aint got 1 relative or m8 who forces their daughters/wives to cover up or wear veils. infact the most extreme of my relatives has a wife who wears jeans now n then (the woman totally controls and manipulates him tbh)
most of the women wear asian clothes , some wear trousers and most people arent too bothered by that.
Spawn said:
So rather than use the free speech that this country allows to offer an opinion of the veil he should shut up before some muslims murder him?
Wouldn't it be nicer all round if he could enjoy the freedom of speech, criticise Islam and muslims could learn to accept criticism without violent reaction?
As for the rest of your post - I agree with you.