Jack Straw has the right idea!

cleanbluesky said:
Stop right there. Is it possible to choose something that is bad for me? If I have poor self esteem and choose to hide myself, is that justification for doing so?
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If you are equating the decision to wear niqaab with having poor self esteem then I disagree with this, as i'm sure many muslim women who choose to wear one would also disagree. I do not think you can talk for people who wear one and I'm not sure why you have this view. I don't think this sympathetic line of reasoning would work because women who wear niqaab (mostly) are not after sympathy. In anycase if you are saying that we should stop people doing things to protect their self esteem then it would lead to crazy situations where we would have to stop women using make up for example.

cleanbluesky said:
What is the difference between 'choice' and 'expectation'? I have known Muslim women who are expected to adopt certain behaviour, so they choose not to take other behaviours
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I am certainly not saying that wearing of hijab or niqaab or anything else should be forced (either expressly or otherwise) upon any given individual. Clearly this does not constitute a free choice and is wrong. But try and imagine a situation where a woman, muslim or otherwise, comes to her own decision to wear a scarf over her head. As long as that decision was made freely then I can see no problem with that and freedom to choose should be safeguarded at all costs. Forgive me if i'm wrong but it seems that, perhaps through your experience, you have a strong opinion that such a choice cannot come from a free thinking person. But if it did, would you still have a problem?

cleanbluesky said:
That's interesting, a "Toleration of all things" seminar, is that its official title?
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No thats not the official title. It's just 'Toleration'. You will have to excuse my poor phrasing :)

VIRII said:
As for the comaptibility issue many muslims do post on various forums that the West and Islam are incompatible.
Culturally covering your face in the UK is not acceptable or normal. There is no need for any woman to cover her face at all, nor is there any reason why the vast majority of the country should adapt to suit a tiny minority when the reverse could occur more easily
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Look, this Islam and the West discussion is in my opinion largely conducted by people who are not properly qualified to discuss it in the first place. People like 'Sheikh' Abu Hamza for example are in no way shape or form regarded as scholarly by the islamic academics. We in the West have always respected other people and have at the very core of our belief the freedom to express and profess religion free from discrimination. As long as this continues Islam is just fine in the West. I agree though that unfortunately ignorance is demonstrated on both sides and its only thorough greater understanding that we can resolve this.

VIRII said:
More women are choosing to do this to give themselves a sense of personal identity. An identity with Islam not with the UK. As I said before it is a badge that says I am different to you, I reject your culture.
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It is not a badge that says this. I can understand to an extent why people might find niqaabs difficult, but this 'identity' question is also applied to people in hijabs and muslims in a wider contect as well. There is a lot of debate as to whether you can be a Muslim and British. I do not see the conflict between the two. Why can you not be both? It's like asking me if i'm English or a Liverpool supporter. There is no conflict here, they are different things entirely, I'm both! On the question of identity I have started to wear one of those black and white checkered scarfs around my neck. They are all the rage around campus at the moment so I thought I'd join in. I do this so that people will recognise me as a muslim. I shouldn't hide if i'm not offending anyone. Also, its no secret that there are a multitude of negative imagery surrounding Islam at the moment, so I do this because I want to change peoples opinions and say, "hey I'm muslim and im just a normal person". But, just cos i wear this scarf doesn't mean I'm rejecting English culture. Being English is what i am and as i said before I don't accept that you have to be one or another.

Wow, i really think i should deserve one or two more posts for these long replies!
 
WushuMaster said:
If you are equating the decision to wear niqaab with having poor self esteem then I disagree with this, as i'm sure many muslim women who choose to wear one would also disagree. I do not think you can talk for people who wear one and I'm not sure why you have this view. I don't think this sympathetic line of reasoning would work because women who wear niqaab (mostly) are not after sympathy. In anycase if you are saying that we should stop people doing things to protect their self esteem then it would lead to crazy situations where we would have to stop women using make up for example.
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You have mistaken my argument. To keep on track...

I am not suggesting, unless someone can come up with a good argument for it, that women should have the veils forcibly removed. I am saying it is a sexist practie that they adopt because it is expected of them. I am saying it encourages Muslim males to look down upon women, just like the idea that Muslim men can beat their wives if they are 'disobedient'. I'm sure there are also many women who think they might 'deserve' being beaten for 'disobedience' because it says so in the koran, but again this does not stop the practice from being opressive.

What I am saying is that we live in a equal country whereby men and women have equal rights and status, and it is time for everyone to understand this.
 
RaohNS said:
While i do honestly agree that we all need culture (whether its heritage related or religious related) i still need more needs to be done particularly from the Muslim community to respect and embrace aspects of British culture. And while yes i agree you can stand up for your culture and beliefs, i hardly class bombing and death threats and condoning deaths as a sensible and civilised way of defending what you as an entity represent.

No you certainly don't come across as a bin laden fan and seem really sincere, but you must recognise why the British people are steadily becoming so Islamophobic and "The War is Coming!" with their attitudes
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This bombing and killing business I have to take issue with. If you looked at muslims in general, most do not hold these views. Please don't group me as someone who does. I agree though, Muslims need to do more because basically at the moment the onus is on us to show people that actually you shouldn't believe everything that you read in the papers. And yes I do understand why Britain is becoming more Islamaphobic and I don't think it has to do with the British people themselves who generally are a very well mannered people who are willing to give others a chance. As I said before people I know admit to having been openly racist before they came into contact with people from ethnic and religious minorities.

The problem is with this tension is that people have a tendancy to become too defensive and the prejudices themselves on all sides are not resolved. All that results is in fact a solidification of peoples 'uninformed' opinions of one another and thats why I keep going on about the need for understanding.

I for one think we will get there in the end :) .
 
cleanbluesky said:
I am saying it is a sexist practie that they adopt because it is expected of them.
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Okay you are saying it is sexist because its women who choose to wear it. Okay thats fine. But lets say for arguments sake that some man just decided that he wanted to wear one for his own personal reasons. He was not forced, he has no particular religion and no ill motives. What then? It should be a persons right to choose what they wear, whether male or female, or of any religious or ethnic denomination. As long as it is their choice, we must respect it.

Whether or not you agree with the logic is not in question here. What I'm arguing for is freedom of religion and I don't believe we should be telling people what to wear full stop.
 
WushuMaster said:
Okay you are saying it is sexist because its women who choose to wear it.
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Actually I'm not. I'm saying is a sexist practice because it is a social disability to wear one, and only women are expected to wear it.

Okay thats fine. But lets say for arguments sake that some man just decided that he wanted to wear one for his own personal reasons. He was not forced, he has no particular religion and no ill motives. What then? It should be a persons right to choose what they wear, whether male or female, or of any religious or ethnic denomination.

As long as it is their choice, we must respect it.
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The general rule of thumb is to 'tolerate' the behaviour of others unless it has a negative effect on others... there are many ways in which a veil and the expectation to wear could be said to be having a negative effect on others.

The expectation to cover yourself has a negative effect on those who are cover themselves. It harms 'integration'.

Ultimately, I see a lot of subtle sexism in the UK in British culture, and its not something I approve of. I get very vocal about it sometimes, and when I see women who are so blatantly robbed of an identity I see the need to help my fellow human beings overcome it.

Whether or not you agree with the logic is not in question here. What I'm arguing for is freedom of religion and I don't believe we should be telling people what to wear full stop.
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How about.... NO. We live in a society whereby we are free to criticise, where there is a freedom of ideas and the idea of no religion will be given higher priority than any other idea.

If you don't think 'we' should be telling people what to wear, why do you think its okay if Muslim women are told they should be wearing a veil? Hmmmm? eh? Hmmm?
 
WushuMaster said:
Look, this Islam and the West discussion is in my opinion largely conducted by people who are not properly qualified to discuss it in the first place. People like 'Sheikh' Abu Hamza for example are in no way shape or form regarded as scholarly by the islamic academics.
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That may be true but it doesn't alter the fact that many muslims believe that there is an incompatibility - as you later allude to in your post.
WushuMaster said:
We in the West have always respected other people and have at the very core of our belief the freedom to express and profess religion free from discrimination.
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We haven't. Far from it. Far, far, far from it. Christians burned pagans and slaughtered non Christians. Catholics murdered and warred with protestants and vice versa. It is not a core belief of many in the west that religious expression is completely free as witnessed by the number of places (eg france) that are refusing to allow Muslims everything that they want (eg headscarves in schools).
WushuMaster said:
As long as this continues Islam is just fine in the West. I agree though that unfortunately ignorance is demonstrated on both sides and its only thorough greater understanding that we can resolve this.
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It would seem that the vast majority of people in the UK do not want women (or anyone) to cover their faces for any reason outside of health and safety. Therefore there is not really much to be said on the matter. We do not *have* to tolerate or understand or accept anything just because it vaguely comes under some religious belief. (Although I don't think Mohammed ever asked women to cover their faces did he.......)
WushuMaster said:
It is not a badge that says this.
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It is to me and to many other Brtish people.
WushuMaster said:
I can understand to an extent why people might find niqaabs difficult, but this 'identity' question is also applied to people in hijabs and muslims in a wider contect as well. There is a lot of debate as to whether you can be a Muslim and British.
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I am aware that many British muslims do not feel that they can be both. I mentioned that earlier.
WushuMaster said:
I do not see the conflict between the two. Why can you not be both? It's like asking me if i'm English or a Liverpool supporter. There is no conflict here, they are different things entirely, I'm both!
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Because many muslims do not seem to seperate culture from religion. Many see Iraqis as being more their people than the people tehy went to school with and work with because they are muslim.
WushuMaster said:
On the question of identity I have started to wear one of those black and white checkered scarfs around my neck. They are all the rage around campus at the moment so I thought I'd join in.
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More badge wearing - and all the rage around campus. No wonder people are having issues segregating, it is as much a statement of where you stand as red braces and a skinhead. What is it intended to symbolise? Perhaps some affinity to Palestine or Hammas?
WushuMaster said:
I do this so that people will recognise me as a muslim. I shouldn't hide if i'm not offending anyone. Also, its no secret that there are a multitude of negative imagery surrounding Islam at the moment, so I do this because I want to change peoples opinions and say, "hey I'm muslim and im just a normal person". But, just cos i wear this scarf doesn't mean I'm rejecting English culture. Being English is what i am and as i said before I don't accept that you have to be one or another.
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To many people being English is a genetic condition that is passed down from ancestors. As for the scarf - it's a lot like a skinhead with big boots and red braces saying "just because I dress this way it doesn't mean I am a racist". It might well be true but people are not going to hang around to find out.
WushuMaster said:
Wow, i really think i should deserve one or two more posts for these long replies!
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LOL. Don't ask for increased post count, the mods tend to reset your count to zero when you do.
 
i havnt read ALL the posts and i dont really want to but its true, why would you come to england to be islamic(or whatever you are.) surly youd want to be english.... its just disrespectfull to goto another contry and expect everyone to understand you. we dont. most dont want to but thats there problem. join/live/come to/whatever a contry you accept there customs and adapt. not disrespect. my 2p. (or cent/whatever)

Foxor. flame on.
 
Foxor` said:
i havnt read ALL the posts and i dont really want to but its true, why would you come to england to be islamic(or whatever you are.) surly youd want to be english.... its just disrespectfull to goto another contry and expect everyone to understand you. we dont. most dont want to but thats there problem. join/live/come to/whatever a contry you accept there customs and adapt. not disrespect. my 2p. (or cent/whatever)

Foxor. flame on.
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Well, I'd say there's nothing preventing someone from being English (or British) and Islamic. The too aren't mutually exclusive, since one's a nationality and the other a religion.

Secondly, this is a (nominally) Christian country, but since Christianity was imported too, albeit quite a while back, the only difference in that regard is how recently the religion was imported.

Thirdly, a significant proportion of Muslims in this country didn't "come to england to be islamic", they were born here. How many generations back do you have to able to trace your ancestry before you have the right to choose your religion?

But the bit that really tickled me was "its just disrespectfull to goto another contry and expect everyone to understand you". The British are really good at going elsewhere and expecting exactly that. Ask the Spanish about the British proclivity to move into a part of Spain and set up little enclaves, expecting English to be spoken, English food and recipes, etc.

I agree with you - if you go to another country, you abide by the rules, laws and traditions of that country, including making decent efforts to speak the language. Anything else is rude. But that often doesn't happen wth Brit's abroad, and a large part of this country's Muslim population aren't "abroad" - they're in their own country (though it may not currently feel like it).
 
RaohNS said:
Wonder if we will see an 8,000 strong crowd and what some of the banners will be this time

>| Raoh |<
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That is interesting.
One of the oft given reasons that we do not see large numbers of people from that community demonstrating against for example 7/7 bombers is that the community has no leaders and can't organise such an event.

Well blow me down, it looks like they can after all!!

So no more excuses for the continued silence from that community against those who use Islam as an excuse to kill can possibly stand up to scrutiny.
So presumeably the only reason we haven't seen protests against suicide bombers is that the community don't see any reason to protest against those who committed 7/7 etc, but over a veil..... oh they can get excited about that right. ROFL.
 
Geoff said:
Well, I'd say there's nothing preventing someone from being English (or British) and Islamic. The too aren't mutually exclusive, since one's a nationality and the other a religion.

Secondly, this is a (nominally) Christian country, but since Christianity was imported too, albeit quite a while back, the only difference in that regard is how recently the religion was imported.

Thirdly, a significant proportion of Muslims in this country didn't "come to england to be islamic", they were born here. How many generations back do you have to able to trace your ancestry before you have the right to choose your religion?

But the bit that really tickled me was "its just disrespectfull to goto another contry and expect everyone to understand you". The British are really good at going elsewhere and expecting exactly that. Ask the Spanish about the British proclivity to move into a part of Spain and set up little enclaves, expecting English to be spoken, English food and recipes, etc.

I agree with you - if you go to another country, you abide by the rules, laws and traditions of that country, including making decent efforts to speak the language. Anything else is rude. But that often doesn't happen wth Brit's abroad, and a large part of this country's Muslim population aren't "abroad" - they're in their own country (though it may not currently feel like it).
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Well said and nicely put across, cant really disagree with any of your points that you have made.
As they say when in Rome do as they Romans do or soemthing similar lol.

As for the sensationalists in here Virii and co that is...the protest has been cancelled;). I wonder which part of that statement you didnt understand clearly....
 
Spawn said:
As for the sensationalists in here Virii and co that is...the protest has been cancelled;). I wonder which part of that statement you didnt understand clearly....
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How does the protest being cancelled, invalidate what VIRII has said though ;)
 
Geoff said:
Well, I'd say there's nothing preventing someone from being English (or British) and Islamic. The too aren't mutually exclusive, since one's a nationality and the other a religion.

Secondly, this is a (nominally) Christian country, but since Christianity was imported too, albeit quite a while back, the only difference in that regard is how recently the religion was imported.

Thirdly, a significant proportion of Muslims in this country didn't "come to england to be islamic", they were born here. How many generations back do you have to able to trace your ancestry before you have the right to choose your religion?

But the bit that really tickled me was "its just disrespectfull to goto another contry and expect everyone to understand you". The British are really good at going elsewhere and expecting exactly that. Ask the Spanish about the British proclivity to move into a part of Spain and set up little enclaves, expecting English to be spoken, English food and recipes, etc.

I agree with you - if you go to another country, you abide by the rules, laws and traditions of that country, including making decent efforts to speak the language. Anything else is rude. But that often doesn't happen wth Brit's abroad, and a large part of this country's Muslim population aren't "abroad" - they're in their own country (though it may not currently feel like it).
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I don't think the Spanish example can be used to compare with muslim immigration. Firstly, Spain is a western country and almost exclusively Christian, therefore the religious differences do not exist.

Secondly, almost without exception the majority of emigrants from Britain to Spain are significantly richer than the indigenous population and are therefore bringing in wealth to the country and clealry contributing. Also, as EU citizens their healthcare is actually claimed back from the UK etc. otherwise they have private medical insurance.

The exPats also move there mainly for two reasons, the primary reason is the lifestyle and they live in that community becasue they love the way of life. The other reason is for business and mainly in support of the ex pats such as travel, estate agencies, restaurants and bars. All of which can clearly be demonstarted as beneficial to the Spanish economy. The lanuage issues are an example of how the Spanish made the same mistake that we are making now. They pandered to the Brits by speaking English in order to help them part with their money. However, in Spanish schools where English pupils attend, they will only speak Spanish; the children learn it and that's that.

I cannot actually think of a single country in the world where Brits have emigrated to and expected that the country cahnges to suit them.
 
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