Jack Straw has the right idea!

[WushuMaster]

My girlfriend is white. She gets a lot of unwanted attention when she wears anything even remotely revealing, say like a low cut top (from white males more than anyone else I might add). She covers her hair when she is alone and has found that this straight away resolves the problem. To say measures such as the hijab are designed for 'lustful arabs' etc. is plain wrong.

I find it sad that many decent people in our country have lost the ability to empathise or understand other people who do not fit in with how we want them to. On the issue of the niqaab (face veil) for example, there was an poll in the Daily Express recently saying that 97% of its readers would back a ban on the face veil in order to 'safeguard racial harmony'. Now i'm sorry, but the number of women in the UK who wear the niqaab is pretty small compared the the number of Muslims in the UK so at best it would only affect a small fraction of interactions between Muslims and non-Muslims. Also, given its such a small number of people who wear the veil, I find it hard to believe that 97% of the Express' readers would ever come into contact with someone wearing a niqaab, so how they are qualified to say it would adversely affect community relations is beyond me.

This is another example of people jumping on the media frenzy band wagon, and to a certain extent I can sympathise with this. If you never came into contact with a 'normal' muslim then all you would have to go by is descriptions of mad mullahs and terror suspects. It's no wonder that there is such distrust of Muslims in the UK at the moment. When I came to university, I met a number of people who said that before they were at uni they were openly racist, simply because they had never come into contact with people from ethnic or religious minorities before. Once they realised that they were in actual fact not so different from themselves they could not see what all the fuss was about.

And this is a big problem for us in the UK today. If we actually took the time to understand one another, or at the very least reserve judgement until we had a better understanding then this community relations debate would not exist. This is why I personally find Jack Straw's comments dissapointing. He clearly has not approached this view in the most understanding light (thinking perhaps that he was doing these women a favour, freeing them from their repressive fathers) and this is what we should be doing more so than ever.

What ever happened to our proud tradition of libertarianism? What's wrong with letting people do their thing as long as it doesn't hurt anyone attitude? Do we really want to live in a society where we are not allowed to express ourselves or openly practice religion (both of which are universal human rights I believe)? Do we want to live in a tightly socially controlled environment? This has been done before and i'm sure you wont need me to tell you how that worked out. Finally I do not think that Islamic values and British values are incompatible. The best British values I believe are essentially Islamic in nature and can be embraced by all. All I would ask is that in our age where things are inflated and sensationalised by a highly irresponsible media that we take the time and care to get to know one another so that we may more accurately gain an understanding of one another. If this is done, I believe we will find that in fact we are not so different.

Here's hoping! (sorry for long post!)

 

[@if ®afiq]

.....snip.....

Excellent post

 

[RaohNS]

In the rented BMW? Yes I have.

Sorted

>| Raoh |<

 

[RaohNS]

snip

Can i just ask has your girlfriend by any chance converted to Islam?

As we had a girl at our high school who was seeing an asian "thug" (because thats what he was.. give me a keyboard ) and he made her convert she split up when at Ramadan he refused any involvement with her as i understand some Muslims give up sex and related activities through the event...

>| Raoh |<

 

[Chronos-X]

A miswak (toothbrush) is used to tap the wife to let them know you're not happy with them.

You're not doing yourself any favours

 

[WushuMaster]

Can i just ask has your girlfriend by any chance converted to Islam?>| Raoh |<

She hasn't converted no. All I was trying to offer with that example was a practical application of covering your hair and the effect she has found that it has had, and also to dispel this notion that seemed to be coming up about the use of it was for sex crazed arab men.

She is however an example of someone who, although she was by no means racist before meeting me, had only a limited experience of other muslims in the past and thus a sketchy idea of how muslims are. I remember her saying to me before we got together that 'you're really just english aren't you'. She said I was the only 'religious' muslim she had ever come across and that she didn't know what to expect of me when we first met. But like I say once she got to know me there was no conflict.

I mean I had to work with a guy this summer. He's a big lad with dreadlocks, had tribal face tattoo's, and more piercings on his face than you care to imagine. Its fair to say that he looked pretty intimidating. Suffice to say, he was one of the nicest guys I met all summer. Irrational fears don't help anyone and in this simple case meant that i got to meet someone really cool who I would not normally have met otherwise.

I agree totally with the need to safeguard our culture. We have one of the proudest traditions of democratic liberalism in the world. As such I believe we must at all costs defend it. The last thing we want is a 'big brother' state where only certain thoughts are permitted and people must realise that irrational illiberalism of this ilk could lead in to a very slippery slope where our civil liberties are in severe danger.

Dialogue is good my friends, but in this dialogue, non-muslims must reserve judgement and Muslims need to take more levelled responses and not take offence at criticisms of non-muslims (not easy given Islamaphobic feeling i realise, but crucial if we are to be properly understood).

Just like to add, i'm not a thug as I hope is apparent from my posts

 

[starscream]

I agree totally with the need to safeguard our culture. We have one of the proudest traditions of democratic liberalism in the world. As such I believe we must at all costs defend it. The last thing we want is a 'big brother' state where only certain thoughts are permitted and people must realise that irrational illiberalism of this ilk could lead in to a very slippery slope where our civil liberties are in severe danger.

This is the crucial point of the debate. Many who oppose hijabs claim to be patriotic to the tradtional values of the UK and in favour of personal choice/freedom, yet take an opposing stance when it is about something they do not agree with. Is it actually not a tabloid "Politically Correct" notion to try and stop something because you don't agree with it for the reasons stated?

2 excellent posts.

 

[WushuMaster]

This is the crucial point of the debate. Many who oppose hijabs claim to be patriotic to the tradtional values of the UK and in favour of personal choice/freedom, yet take an opposing stance when it is about something they do not agree with. Is it actually not a tabloid "Politically Correct" notion to try and stop something because you don't agree with it for the reasons stated?

2 excellent posts.

Thanks

Well look, I think you're right, this is the crux of the debate. I'd like to say that i don't think the cause of the muslims has been helped by (some of the) reaction to it and thats why I mention the need for measured responses.

My argument is that I don't think the effect of this has been properly thought out. Its amazing (actually perhaps not) that a bit of cloth can cause this amount of frenzy amongst people who probably have little contact with it but basically, veiled women are being put in a category that includes bank robbers, rapists and the like and on this basis there is supposedly an argument for them to remove them because they are distrustful. I think this is flawed reasoning. The motives of a muslim woman for wearing niqaab are conclusively opposed to that of a criminal and if we took a modicrum of time to realise this we would see that there is no need to be distrustful of them.

 

[VIRII]

This is the crucial point of the debate. Many who oppose hijabs claim to be patriotic to the tradtional values of the UK and in favour of personal choice/freedom, yet take an opposing stance when it is about something they do not agree with. Is it actually not a tabloid "Politically Correct" notion to try and stop something because you don't agree with it for the reasons stated?

2 excellent posts.

Actually many claim that such garments are divisive and cause tension and social segregation as they are a badge of identity.
Given the current climate of social tension and the ghettoed and segmented communities that are now a feature of this country where people simply do not mix outside of their specific cultural /racial clique and the increasing levels of intolerance between them is it a good idea to stick a badge on that says "I am different to you, I have different beliefs and I reject your culture"?

I don't think that it is. Unless you want civil unrest and infighting of course. Integration is the key (and i believe the opposite of multiculturalism) to a happy UK. The multicultural policies we've endured have not created the big happy family promised, instead they have created distinct and seperate tribes who view each other with suspicion and mistrust. Wearing your tribes badge only serves to deepen rifts. That's the "crux" of it

 

[cleanbluesky]

Its amazing (actually perhaps not) that a bit of cloth can cause this amount of frenzy amongst people who probably have little contact with it but basically, veiled women are being put in a category that includes bank robbers, rapists and the like and on this basis there is supposedly an argument for them to remove them because they are distrustful.

Do you know what a straw man argument is? No-one has defined a catagory here to place bank robbers, rapists and hijab wearing Muslims so lets not misrepresent the arguments of others.
What has been done is paralleled the OTHER USES of covering your face, and I think you will find that covering the face is usually done in some very unusual situations. If you think that face-covering DOES make a Muslim woman comparable with a bank robber or a rapist then you need to examine your own argument or stop misrepresenting the arguments of others...

I think this is flawed reasoning. The motives of a muslim woman for wearing niqaab are conclusively opposed to that of a criminal and if we took a modicrum of time to realise this we would see that there is no need to be distrustful of them.

It is a question of identity. A bank robber wishes to remain anonymous, just as anyone wearing a veil should be. A culture that wishes it's women to hide yet does not require similar of it's men is a sexist culture. We have spent a long, long time kicking sexism out of this country - through intolerance of it. The veil represents a link to our past that we should not tolerate, we have enough trouble working to eradicate the remaining tendrils of sexism from our country now, without being expected to educate and rememedy the sexism of an anarchronistic culture that is becoming generaly unpopular due to the unchecked actions of a consistent minority of followers.

 

[RaohNS]

She hasn't converted no. All I was trying to offer with that example was a practical application of covering your hair and the effect she has found that it has had, and also to dispel this notion that seemed to be coming up about the use of it was for sex crazed arab men.

I see... maybe it has something to do with the 20 strong family members

I agree totally with the need to safeguard our culture. We have one of the proudest traditions of democratic liberalism in the world. As such I believe we must at all costs defend it. The last thing we want is a 'big brother' state where only certain thoughts are permitted and people must realise that irrational illiberalism of this ilk could lead in to a very slippery slope where our civil liberties are in severe danger.

Dialogue is good my friends, but in this dialogue, non-muslims must reserve judgement and Muslims need to take more levelled responses and not take offence at criticisms of non-muslims (not easy given Islamaphobic feeling i realise, but crucial if we are to be properly understood).

Just like to add, i'm not a thug as I hope is apparent from my posts

While i do honestly agree that we all need culture (whether its heritage related or religious related) i still need more needs to be done particularly from the Muslim community to respect and embrace aspects of British culture. And while yes i agree you can stand up for your culture and beliefs, i hardly class bombing and death threats and condoning deaths as a sensible and civilised way of defending what you as an entity represent.

No you certainly don't come across as a bin laden fan and seem really sincere, but you must recognise why the British people are steadily becoming so Islamophobic and "The War is Coming!" with their attitudes

>| Raoh |<

 

[WushuMaster]

Actually many claim that such garments are divisive and cause tension and social segregation as they are a badge of identity....... is it a good idea to stick a badge on that says "I am different to you, I have different beliefs and I reject your culture"?

It needn't say this. We need to look at the reasons why it is that there is this perceived notion of Islam and Britain not being compatible. I don't think it is to do with people interacting because I believe their would be more understanding, not less. The media has much to answer for here, just as it does with peoples views on asylum for example.

No-one has defined a catagory here to place bank robbers, rapists and hijab wearing Muslims so lets not misrepresent the arguments of others.

Sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear. Someone earlier on in the debate used a similar argument to justify banning niqaab (apologies can't remember who)

A culture that wishes it's women to hide yet does not require similar of it's men is a sexist culture. We have spent a long, long time kicking sexism out of this country - through intolerance of it. The veil represents a link to our past that we should not tolerate, we have enough trouble working to eradicate the remaining tendrils of sexism from our country now, without being expected to educate and rememedy the sexism of an anarchronistic culture that is becoming generaly unpopular due to the unchecked actions of a consistent minority of followers.

The thing that you must understand about the niqaab is that it is the womans choice. There is nothing sexist about a woman choosing to wear a niqaab. The idea that women are forced (especially in this country) to cover up seems massively overblown. We are at a point when actually more women are choosing to wear a hijab because it gives them a sense of personal identity and what i ask is wrong in this? This issue is not one of liberating woman from the veil by banning it so that they can be free from them, it is one of allowing women to continue to be liberated by safeguarding their choice to do so if that is what they wish.

Want to write more, but actually have to dash to a seminar on Toleration of all things!

 

[cleanbluesky]

The thing that you must understand about the niqaab is that it is the womans choice. There is nothing sexist about a woman choosing to wear a niqaab.

Stop right there. Is it possible to choose something that is bad for me? If I have poor self esteem and choose to hide myself, is that justification for doing so?
If I choose to hurt myself, does that make it okay because it is my choice?

The idea that women are forced (especially in this country) to cover up seems massively overblown. We are at a point when actually more women are choosing to wear a hijab because it gives them a sense of personal identity and what i ask is wrong in this? This issue is not one of liberating woman from the veil by banning it so that they can be free from them, it is one of allowing women to continue to be liberated by safeguarding their choice to do so if that is what they wish.

What is the difference between 'choice' and 'expectation'? I have known Muslim women who are expected to adopt certain behaviour, so they choose not to take other behaviours... I do not know anything about your background but I believe it is far more common amongst Muslims from poorer backgrounds and I could give you some quite unpleasant tales of Muslim girls who are 'expected' to adopt certain behaviour (wearing a hijab amongst them).

Want to write more, but actually have to dash to a seminar on Toleration of all things!

That's interesting, a "Toleration of all things" seminar, is that its official title?

 

[starscream]

Actually many claim that such garments are divisive and cause tension and social segregation as they are a badge of identity.

What about Rastafarian dress? or Sikh dress? or any other clothing that is traditional of a specific religion or social group? Your individual perception of what is or is not divisive is not a basis to dictate what other people can wear. Integration is all well and good, but why should it mean that certain cultures should be told what they can and cannot wear? I would have thought as someone who I thought does not like to see culture eroded you appreciate this.

 

[cleanbluesky]

What about Rastafarian dress? or Sikh dress? or any other clothing that is traditional of a specific religion or social group? Your individual perception of what is or is not divisive is not a basis to dictate what other people can wear. Integration is all well and good, but why should it mean that certain cultures should be told what they can and cannot wear? I would have thought as someone who I thought does not like to see culture eroded you appreciate this.

I think Virii's argument is based upon the concept of specific dress. If Rasta or Sikh dress was in question then it would be appropriate to compare, but neither involve facial covering. To my knowledge there is only one culture that emphasises facial covering in that way.

The act of covering the face prohibits communication and identity. It is a cross-cultural phenomenon, it is a human thing.

 

[VIRII]

It needn't say this. We need to look at the reasons why it is that there is this perceived notion of Islam and Britain not being compatible. I don't think it is to do with people interacting because I believe their would be more understanding, not less. The media has much to answer for here, just as it does with peoples views on asylum for example.

But whilst it needn't say this to many it does. As for the comaptibility issue many muslims do post on various forums that the West and Islam are incompatible.
Culturally covering your face in the UK is not acceptable or normal. There is no need for any woman to cover her face at all, nor is there any reason why the vast majority of the country should adapt to suit a tiny minority when the reverse could occur more easily.

The thing that you must understand about the niqaab is that it is the womans choice. There is nothing sexist about a woman choosing to wear a niqaab. The idea that women are forced (especially in this country) to cover up seems massively overblown. We are at a point when actually more women are choosing to wear a hijab because it gives them a sense of personal identity and what i ask is wrong in this? This issue is not one of liberating woman from the veil by banning it so that they can be free from them, it is one of allowing women to continue to be liberated by safeguarding their choice to do so if that is what they wish.

More women are choosing to do this to give themselves a sense of personal identity. An identity with Islam not with the UK. As I said before it is a badge that says I am different to you, I reject your culture.

The thing that you must understand is that covering the face in UK culture is abnormal and frowned upon. Why must we understand Islamic customs, why can't islamic people who choose to live here adpat accordingly?

Want to write more, but actually have to dash to a seminar on Toleration of all things!

Tolerance?

 

[VIRII]

What about Rastafarian dress? or Sikh dress? or any other clothing that is traditional of a specific religion or social group? Your individual perception of what is or is not divisive is not a basis to dictate what other people can wear. Integration is all well and good, but why should it mean that certain cultures should be told what they can and cannot wear? I would have thought as someone who I thought does not like to see culture eroded you appreciate this.

I'm not too bothered about the erosion of your culture in my country. Only with my culture in my country.

Do Rastas cover their faces? How about Sikhs? No? Ahhh well maybe that is why no-one is whining about it then.
Shouldn't integration be more important than a foreign culture being practiced here? Which is more important? Harmony and everyone getting along or tensions and social problems stemming from people segregating themselves away from the rest of the country?

 

[VIRII]

I think Virii's argument is based upon the concept of specific dress. If Rasta or Sikh dress was in question then it would be appropriate to compare, but neither involve facial covering. To my knowledge there is only one culture that emphasises facial covering in that way.

The act of covering the face prohibits communication and identity. It is a cross-cultural phenomenon, it is a human thing.

There was a news article last night about a man who got into an argument with another driver who was accompanied by a female passenger.

A few minutes later when leaving a shop the man was attacked by the other driver and had his head jumped on with both feet several times. A woman passerby who tried to intervene was also attacked by the attacker.

There is clear CCTV of the female that was with the attacker but she's wearing her face veil. A shame as this man very nearly lost his life and the ferocity of the attack was intense. Still we must protect her rights first and foremost, so what if she's not come forward to shop her extremely violent male friend. Maybe she's scared that he doesn't actually respect her all that much after all.
People who hide their faces have something to hide and arouse suspicion in virtually every culture on the planet.

 

[starscream]

I'm not too bothered about the erosion of your culture in my country. Only with my culture in my country.

What do you mean by "Your" culture?

 

[VIRII]

What do you mean by "Your" culture?

My culture. Loyalty to country, based on christianity and with no reference to Islam. A sense of pride in the achievements of my ancestors and the great nation that we once were. A mono culture that is not interested in this "multi faith multi cultural" experiment that is causing so many people so much anguish. Aculture where women can be proud to be beautiful and are treated as equals and are not expected or encouraged to hide their natural beauty from the world.

Your Culture. Whatever it is that you believe in. Whether it is the Islamic nationalists view or some other imported world view.