Jack Straw has the right idea!

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:05

Gilly said:
This is one of 'their' countries.

It is not an Islamic country. It is nothing like Saudi or Iran or Iraq.
It is not in the middle east.

It is a christian country, its laws are enshrined in christian religion and history as are its festivals and holidays.

This is a country in which Muslims are free to live, that is not the same thing as it being a muslim country as implied by the statement "their country".

It is "their country" when talking about individual british citizenship, not when talking about ideological ideals as to the general faith and direction fo the country as a whole. It is certainly not included in the oft heard "muslim land" areas - unless of course you consider that the various people who claim that parts of britain are now Islamic and non muslims are not welcome are correct?

cleanbluesky · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:07

Diesel said:
One student is a Muslim girl/woman whose attire doesnt even have eye holes, just a mesh.

That's a new low i haven't seen over here before

AndyOcUK · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:08

VIRII said:
It is not an Islamic country. It is nothing like Saudi or Iran or Iraq.
It is not in the middle east.

It is a christian country, its laws are enshrined in christian religion and history as are its festivals and holidays.

This is a country in which Muslims are free to live, that is not the same thing as it being a muslim country as implied by the statement "their country".

It is "their country" when talking about individual british citizenship, not when talking about ideological ideals as to the general faith and direction fo the country as a whole. It is certainly not included in the oft heard "muslim land" areas - unless of course you consider that the various people who claim that parts of britain are now Islamic and non muslims are not welcome are correct?

Couldn't agree more. Can't help wondering how tolerant muslim countries would be if we started putting up churches of the Christian faith in their towns.

Gilly · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:08

He was talking in context of sending 'them' home. This is the home of the people I referred to.

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:09

cleanbluesky said:
Which is another interesting thought I had. I say nothing on here that I would not say to anyone's face, and I suspect Virii is the same.

I am far better tempered and more polite on these forums than I would be likely to be in the flesh. I am not as nice as I seem here.

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:10

cleanbluesky said:
That's a new low i haven't seen over here before

She must be seriously unattractive.

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:11

Gilly said:
He was talking in context of sending 'them' home. This is the home of the people I referred to.

I think he was referring to a different home, I simply wanted to clarify that there are differences in the useage of some terms.

cleanbluesky · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:11

wohoo said:
Out of interest how do many of you feel about headscarves, are they acceptable or not?

Headscarves do not hide the face, or strip a woman of an identity. I don't like the fact that women may be expected to wear them, or face persecution should they not, but I believe they are more decorative than opressive

kumar101 · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:13

5 years ago in NW London it was very rare to see anyone even with a Scarf on. Suddenly Ive noticed an increase of Muslim Women covering themselves.

I wonder how many of them do it out of choice or is it mainly due to Parental or Peer pressure?

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:15

AndyOcUK said:
Couldn't agree more. Can't help wondering how tolerant muslim countries would be if we started putting up churches of the Christian faith in their towns.

I'm sure they would be fine provided that you did not in any way fail to respect their religion and accepted that you were only tolerated as long as you towed the line. I doubt that you'd be allowed to dress in what they saw as an inappropriate manner and then claim discrimination when you were attacked or refused service etc.
That is the crux of these issues, it is about conforming to norms and not causing other people distress.

Muslims here state that we shouldn't worry about women wearing viels, "what's the big deal it is just a few people".

I wonder if they would support people in Islamic countries walking around in bikinis or drinking alcohol? After all what is the problem it is just a few people and it is NOT affecting anyone else is it?

Yet I very much doubt that they'd take the same liberal viewpoint in those circumstances. Blatant hypocrisy....

cleanbluesky · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:15

Gilly said:
I'm just trying to make sure that people don't lose sight of what is actually the issue at hand. There are plenty of English muslims about, both of actual English descent as well as 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation imports.

No, becasue being English isn't granted through a passport. There are 'British' Muslims about, but what worth is that tag when so many do not wish to partake in the practices of the British people.

VIRII · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:16

kumar101 said:
5 years ago in NW London it was very rare to see anyone even with a Scarf on. Suddenly Ive noticed an increase of Muslim Women covering themselves.

I wonder how many of them do it out of choice or is it mainly due to Parental or Peer pressure?

I wonder why people in the UK feel it necessary to practice a more extreme version of islam than people in many Muslim countries do.

You'll see more fully covered women in Watford than Pakistan.

AndyOcUK · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:22

VIRII said:
I'm sure they would be fine provided that you did not in any way fail to respect their religion and accepted that you were only tolerated as long as you towed the line. I doubt that you'd be allowed to dress in what they saw as an inappropriate manner and then claim discrimination when you were attacked or refused service etc.
That is the crux of these issues, it is about conforming to norms and not causing other people distress.

Muslims here state that we shouldn't worry about women wearing viels, "what's the big deal it is just a few people".

I wonder if they would support people in Islamic countries walking around in bikinis or drinking alcohol? After all what is the problem it is just a few people and it is NOT affecting anyone else is it?

Yet I very much doubt that they'd take the same liberal viewpoint in those circumstances. Blatant hypocrisy....

Couldn't agree more

Gilly · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:38

cleanbluesky said:
No, becasue being English isn't granted through a passport.

You're right it isn't. You don't have to have a passport to be English you just have to be born here.

Stolly · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:40

Gilly said:
You're right it isn't. You don't have to have a passport to be English you just have to be born here.

How about those Muslims who have gone on record as not considering themselves to be British ?

Lets grant them their wish and officially consider them to be foreigners.

No rights to benefits, pay for healthcare.

Or cordially invite them to find some other part of the world where they may feel more at home.

RaohNS · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:41

Stolly said:
How about those Muslims who have gone on record as not considering themselves to be British ?

Lets grant them their wish and officially consider them to be foreigners.

No rights to benefits, pay for healthcare.

Or cordially invite them to find some other part of the world where they may feel more at home.

Like the whole pay them to leave... ala the Afghanistan refugees who came here... go back and we'll pay you £3,000

>| Raoh |<

AndyOcUK · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:44

Stolly said:
How about those Muslims who have gone on record as not considering themselves to be British ?

Lets grant them their wish and officially consider them to be foreigners.

No rights to benefits, pay for healthcare.

Or cordially invite them to find some other part of the world where they may feel more at home.

Agreed - That's the fair and just treatment I'd expect to recieve myself when abroad - its a simple concept known as respect. It would be interesting be see what these self confessed non britsh folk would do if we had another world war and military service/ national service/ conscription was reintroduced.

Dj_Jestar · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:47

For some women it's not as simple as making the choice to wear, or not wear a Veil / Head Scarf.

You're born into it and some families take it very seriously, so the woman either wears the veil or becomes an outcast.

That comes from what I learnt in RE at school about 10 years ago, not personal experience as I'm about as far from Islamic as you can get

PaulStat · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:50

VIRII said:
I'm sure they would be fine provided that you did not in any way fail to respect their religion and accepted that you were only tolerated as long as you towed the line. I doubt that you'd be allowed to dress in what they saw as an inappropriate manner and then claim discrimination when you were attacked or refused service etc.
That is the crux of these issues, it is about conforming to norms and not causing other people distress.

Muslims here state that we shouldn't worry about women wearing viels, "what's the big deal it is just a few people".

I wonder if they would support people in Islamic countries walking around in bikinis or drinking alcohol? After all what is the problem it is just a few people and it is NOT affecting anyone else is it?

Yet I very much doubt that they'd take the same liberal viewpoint in those circumstances. Blatant hypocrisy....

That's pretty presumptious, do you have first hand experience of how accepting people are to other cultures in Islamic countries, or are you basing this on what you've heard in the media.

fini · 6 Oct 2006 at 10:52

weeble said:
The whole arguement is not about race, but about the CULTURAL differences between the Muslim and Christianity faiths.

Agreed, and I know it's been said before, but I think people are losing sight of this. There is no religious justification for wearing a burqa or even niqab(sp?). Anything more than the hijab is purely cultural.

@VIRII, there are plenty of clubs selling alchohol in Turkey and UAE

fini