Japanese Grand Prix 2010, Suzuka - Race 16/19

i find this rather intresting

Schumacher says car 'not always same' as Rosberg's
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=390836&FS=F1
"The car worked great this time," said the 41-year-old after a good weekend at Suzuka.

"Unfortunately, I cannot say it has been that way at all the races," he reportedly told German television RTL.

"There have often been problems, especially on my car, in terms of the consistency, that were not always noticed from the outside.

"You only saw that I was slower.

"Both cars have not always been the same," insisted Schumacher, who just before Sunday's Japanese Grand Prix complained that the F-duct on his car was not working properly at Suzuka.

Mercedes' Norbert Haug responded to Bild newspaper: "I cannot disagree with Michael. As far as the car is concerned, he is right."
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WHy can't people be more, critical of drivers and have to have favourites.

Button really is nothing more than average, shown through years of being considered decidedly average and certainly not brilliant.

He won 6 of 7 races as the number 1 driver at a team on its last legs that got incredibly lucky with a great piece of engineering. Brawn were completely untouchable, McClaren, Red Bull and Ferrari were so far down it was laughable, half way through the year Brawn were still the best car, by a much smaller margin and Red Brawn started to do better than Brawn, with worse cars, I think Vettel and Webber are better than Button. Hamilton did the best in the 2nd half of the season with, if you're nice, was the 3rd best car out there, which for me shows he's above the others. Alonso, with maybe the 4th best car out there did better but not good enough. Its very hard to judge though, Hamilton was so far ahead of Kovo it looked like night and day, Alonso's 2nd driver was infinately better and the gap was closer. The Ferrari wasn't as good as the McClaren in general so it was hard to compare, I'd say not much in it between the two.

Button without BY FAR the best car, hasn't come close, he's fluked into a couple silly results this year, early year if Webber/Hamilton hadn't pitted for new tyres thinking everyone was going to Button wouldn't have been close, he's passed almost no one this year, his one great tactical piece of genius, was really limiting the damage as he was one of the slowest in the top 10 or so and pitted at the right time, more out of lack of options than tactical genius.

Vettel is closer to Hamiltons style, balls out, makes far more mistakes, thats life.

End of the season with two McClarens that aren't really close to being competitve and Hamilton is likely to outscore Button by quite a bit.

Some drivers are more aggressive, finish less races, some are more, consistant(or boring, whatever you like) and finish more races, neither is better, or worse, but if someone in either style can outscore the other, generally you'd consider that driver better.

When Button has a level footing with other drivers, he does worse, frankly he's done better than everyone in one season in his career, and the Brawn car was sooo far ahead, its utterly ridiculous to out of nowhere consider him to be world class, or even close.

Honestly if Brawn had Sutil and De Grassi, there was a VERY good chance Sutil would have been the world champion, if it was Rubens and Sutil, Rubens would be no 1 and he'd have won the title.

THe car won the title last year, half the drivers in F1 right now would have won the title had they been in that car. Ignore that and look at this year/last year, he's never pushed his car to outperform itself, ever. Hamilton can make the McClaren perform closer to the Red Bulls, Alonso can take a semi average Ferrari and make it look good, Massi and Button perform as the slow end of the cars capabilities, nothing more or less. For me Webber is that kind of driver for Red Bull and Vettel pulls out speed at any stage of the race Webber finds very hard to match.

To a large degree the car wins the title every year, which is a shame, too often the gap between the top and 2nd best car is simply to big to bridge. If Red Bull hadn't shot themselves in the foot so often this season they'd be so far ahead right now it would be laughable, really Vettel/Webber should have a good 50point lead, at least, which also suggests to me neither is close to the best driver around.

We still don't know if Red Bull are cheating and just can't be caught, or the FIA at this stage are unwilling for the fall out of DQ'ing that at this point. Last year a rule that was meant to stop one thing left room for the difusers and you've got all but 1 team at a huge huge disadvantage. I'd personally kill for the top 3-4 teams to be basically on par with each other, for overtaking to be a large part of racing, more exciting races and not relying on overtaking in the pits to win races, but thats just me.
 
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arknor said:
i'd rate button above webber and probably vettel but not in the same class as alonso and hamilton imo
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100% agreed.

Vettel, though good, cannot be regarded as highly as Vettel as Button is doing well against Hamilton and has won a world championship already.

The top line drivers are Alonso and Hamilton, with Alonso having gained a slight advantage, only because he has performed so well since the middle of this season.

When polled, Alonso was regarded as the best F1 driver in 2010, rated by his peers. That poll carries a lot of weight.
 
sunama said:
Button won 6 out of 7 races last year, in the first half of the season. That in itself deserves the title. Any driver who has achieved that feat has every right to win the title.

Furthermore, Button has gone on this year, to prove that he can at least hang on Hamilton.
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Absolutely! Especially impressive when you consider how Hamilton's been with McLaren his whole career, and Button just walked in the door. Button is absolutely a deserving champion, something he's proved this year more than last.

Also don't forget Button finished 3rd in the championship in 2004. A year when MSc won 13/18. Button had more 3rd places, behind the ~unbeatable Ferrari, than anyone else. He's a class act.
 
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arknor said:
i find this rather intresting

Schumacher says car 'not always same' as Rosberg's
http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=390836&FS=F1
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Haug wouldn't disagree if Ms said it was all haugs fault. Theres loads of pressure in germany that Mercedes are failing Schumacher. They would move him on but daren't. I bet my house if they could they would offer MS a nice retirement job as a consultant and hire kubica.

Perhaps it's a big dose of karma, ask irvine what happened to his car at suzuka 99. It's long been known that the ferraris driven by MS and his team mates were far from equal.

Even Ross has said he's there now purely on name and past achievements. He's had his time, regs move on and these cars don't suit him. I thought he would get used to it and adapt but clearly with no testing this has become a task too far.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Hamilton can make the McClaren perform closer to the Red Bulls, Alonso can take a semi average Ferrari and make it look good, Massi and Button perform as the slow end of the cars capabilities, nothing more or less. For me Webber is that kind of driver for Red Bull and Vettel pulls out speed at any stage of the race Webber finds very hard to match.
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You've just defined the differences between No.1 and No.2 drivers pretty well there.

The No.1 driver is supposed to be attacking and will drive closer to the edge. It is likely that he may make mistakes, but at the end of the season, he should easily be able to outscore his No.2.

The No.2 driver must back up his team leader. At times, he may have to move out of the way of his team-leader, on track, if the team leader is faster (which is likely to be the case). If the team-leader drops out of the race, then the No.2 is expected to fill the No.1 driver's place and get good points. In any case, the job of the No.2 driver is to help win the constructors' title.

Before the start of this year, I would've said that the 2 best No.2 drivers out there are Massa and Button. Massa, for whatever reason, just hasn't been competitive this year. Even when Alonso is starting at the back of the grid he is able to pull up behind Massa (who started the race, ahead) and then climb all over the back of him.

For me, Button is the best No.2 driver in the business. In fact, in most teams he would be the No.1 driver. The only reason he would be No.2 is if he is driving alongside Hamilton or Alonso. Moreover, McLaren still don't publicly acknowledge Button as the No.2. They are operating a policy of joint No.1 status.

Because there is such scarcity of good No.2 drivers, Button would be the first driver I would try to hire, if I were creating a team, with unlimited resources. There are 2 top No.1 drivers out there (Alonso and Hamilton), which means that I would have a choice.

In general, when you have 2 No.1 drivers, of equal ability, there is much friction and depending on their competitiveness, it will usually end in tears (Prost/Senna, Prost/Mansell, Alonso/Hamilton are all great examples of this).

As shown by Ferrari and MSc, the system of using a No.1 and No.2 driver is the best way to win both titles as each driver knows what his role is within the team, from the outset. This system is also much less likely to have drivers falling out with each other.

The other great thing about Button is that he is a very easy-going, relaxed person and can get along with even the more difficult characters.

Button did indeed have the best car last year, however, Vettel has had the same this year and look how he is struggling.

Button is also comparing very well to Hamilton this year. Based on results from this year and last, I would say Button is definitely a very good driver and would be a credit to any team.
 
sunama said:
When did Brawn say this?
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he didnt people like to twist what brawn says..

basicly brawn said something along the lines of "schumacher is here because we know who he is and what hes capable of"

i cant be bothered to try and find rhe exact quote as it was some time ago but i bet danyjo22 doesnt find it either because he said nothing of the sort
 
Maybe a lot of people dislike Button because his driving style is boring?

I also find it much more entertaining to watch Kobayashi than Button but that doesn't mean Button is a bad driver, he is just different than Hamilton and maybe that is one of the reasons (maybe even the most important one) why McLaren were hapy to sign him.

Leeeeeeeroyyyy Jenkinssssss
 
IPBA said:
Do you have any links to confirm this mate - I always thought Brawn has backed the old schumi to return next year if the car and tyres suit him?
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ok i googled and found it right away http://www.crash.net/f1/news/163769/1/brawn_backs_schumacher_to_succeed.html


heres the bit the anti MSC people like to twist
Brawn also revealed that Schumacher might have found himself out of work without his past successes to back him up.

“To be honest, probably not,” he said when asked if Schumacher would still be in the car if he was anyone else. “But because we know Michael, we know that there is still a lot to come because Michael is in many fields more talented than others - in driving and in the cooperation with the team. The team are very happy with the way Michael is contributing. If he were a rookie we surely would have asked ourselves if he has the capacity to advance. With Michael we know that he has.

“If you take the telemetry data in fast corners or his reaction time when the car breaks away, I don't see any difference [from when he was with Ferrari]. There he's still the old Michael. But in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can. Nico has put the bar very high in this respect. But I guess that's okay for Michael as he clearly sees where he has to improve. I predict that in 2011 we will again see the true Michael - when we've delivered him a better car.
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the enlarged font is the only part they want you to see ;)

the second enlarged bit is why michael was so fast ar suzuka , its all pretty much fast flowing corners, michael seems to overheat the tyres if theres lots of slow corners
brawn also says in the same full interview the tyres are very different from the norm and next year they shoulds be more what schumacher is used to
 
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Thanks arknor - I believe people expect too much from Schumi. He himself said this will take time I am no magician. I believe he will be back next year providing the pirelli tyres suit him and the car is vastly improved.
 
drunkenmaster said:
WHy can't people be more, critical of drivers and have to have favourites.
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Critical analysis is to be admired but if you only focus on one part of the racing drivers trade and only on a couple of seasons (remember button is an old man compared to some on the grid now) you're being just as biased as those you choose to criticise.

For me Button hasn't lived up to the hype when he joined F1, a lot of that is down to him, his bad decisions and sometimes his apparent lack of desire. He's had a few good runs though and the last 2 seasons have been a bit of a purple patch for him.

I'll reserve judgement until next year, settled in the team and with a full winters testing I'd expect a driver of his reputed calibre to push Hamilton a lot harder a lot more often.

I'll also expect a Driver of Hamilton's obvious potential to stop crashing so much!
 
IPBA said:
Do you have any links to confirm this mate - I always thought Brawn has backed the old schumi to return next year if the car and tyres suit him?
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The link has been provided, he says he's not fast enough and if it had been a rookie they would have looked to replace him.

All this bull that MS had a revival at suzuka, don't make laugh. He couldn't pass his team mate on new tyres when rosberg has been on a set for that had to last the whole gp distance.

Yes MS was faster than him when he was free of Rosberg but so what. Rosberg was on an ancient set of tyres with most of the life being used on heavy fuel and was having to manage tyre wear.

Had MS pitted on the same lap Rosberg would have destroyed him again.

MS did his usual, had a quick look for an easy pass and bottled it. Time to radio in to ask for help. He's never been great wheel to wheel, the three best passes of the last 15 years have all been on him and in comparison he gets stuck behind a BAR for 25 laps waiting for pitstops.

MS was a legend with sprint races in narrow grooved twitchy cars loaded with gadgets. Untouchable. His time has past, I defended him a lot at the start of the season, I fully expected more from him. Will it come in 2011, highly doubtfull when you consider the advantage Ferrari and Mclaren already have with Kers.
 
you defended him my arse you have been having a go all year so dont make out you defending him lol from the anouncement of his come back you were already having a go...


yup schumacher goes for easy overtake then bottles it ......
 
dannyjo22 said:
He couldn't pass his team mate on new tyres when rosberg has been on a set for that had to last the whole gp distance.
.
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To be fair Webber was behind Vettel the whole race and Hamilton was behind Button most of the race (Hamilton really should have been released).

The only people making passes stick were those with nothing to lose, when you're racing your team mate that isn't an acceptable tactic. Stick it in and hope the other guy yields - brave if you make it work, stupid if you wreck your race, absolute disaster if you take you and your team mate out of the race.
 
I hope that Red Bull implode at Korea. Not just because I'm a McLaren fan, but I believe the championship would be much more exciting if it goes to the final race. 28 points to 4th place Hamilton makes me sad :( Vettels finger wagging was annoying as usual, but I did smirk when Webber did fastest lap just to annoy him! ha!

Here's hoping the upgrades work at Korea. Oh, and good shout for the tyre wear.. another Canada (where the softs last 10 laps?) please :)
 
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