Japanese Grand Prix 2010, Suzuka - Race 16/19

Who started arknor off about Schumacher? :p

I thought it was well known he had hidden traction control code in the ECU?
on the jordan , benneton , ferrari ?

it was never proved it was in the benneton anyway only suspected? did the car sound like it had TC?

how does schumacher start so well now if the reason hes suffering is because "its the first time hes been without TC" ?
 
on the jordan , benneton , ferrari ?

it was never proved it was in the benneton anyway only suspected? did the car sound like it had TC?

how does schumacher start so well now if the reason hes suffering is because "its the first time hes been without TC" ?

i thought the code was proven, if he used it or not could not be proved
 
i thought the code was proven, if he used it or not could not be proved
only launch control.... i like how they discoveed illegal software in RIVAL teams aswell

During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious".[1]
 
so why is he one of the fastest starters on the field at just about every race?

i think that alone throws your traction control theory out of the window

Then explain to me why Ross Brawn specifically says he is struggling with slow corners? if it was tyre degradation he would struggle all over the circuit.

Just read Ross Brawn's comment: "but in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can."

He cannot make full use - that sounds to me like the performance is there but he is unable to exploit it.

ferrari didnt have traction control for the whole time schumacher was there either

They had it for most of the time he was with them and he won most of his titles with it.

he drove in an era with almost no driving aids and manual gear boxes and was still fast enough to keep up with senna let us not forget...

Yeah he did decades ago, that doesn't mean he can still perform in todays cars against opposition that has continued to improve with each generation.
 
I see Arknors wiki page copy and paste and raise him an Article by Lawerence a respected journo who I rate higher than wiki...

;)

Note mclaren also had something to hide :)

Quote from M.Lawrence:

"...In 1994 Benetton had traction control on its computer program, yet traction control had been outlawed. There is no question about this, it was discovered by the FIA and admitted by the team. Benetton claimed it was only used in testing. Of course, Flavio, of course, teams regularly waste time, and bins full of cash, testing outlawed systems they do not use in races. “

When Ayrton Senna retired from the 1994 Pacific Grand Prix at Aida, he stood with his car for about 15 minutes and went back to his pits and reported that Benetton was running different cars. Senna knew that Schumacher was using traction control. ...In his eyes it was a British team that was cheating and Michael went along with it.

To activate the traction control, or 'launch control' as Benetton claimed it was, the driver had to go through a specific and complicated procedure on the parade lap, the driver activated the system so there is no way that Schumacher was an innocent..."

In short:

1. "The FIA cast a further shadow over Schumacher's aspirations when it announced that Benetton was found to have a computer system capable of breaching the regulations"

2. "...Charlie Whiting indicated his belief that the Benetton team had the facility to run an illegal launch (automatic start) control..."

3. " Senna, for one, was extremely suspicious about the Benetton's performance out of slow and medium speed corners. On several occasions, in private, he voiced the view that there was something about the Benetton which worried him....he suspected that the B194 might have some sort of illegal traction control system."

4. "Whiting's Imola report which confirmed the presence of 'launch control' - an automatic start system - in Schumacher's Imola black box."

5. "Launch control could in fact be switched on using a lap-top...Benetton indicated that the availability of this feature came as a surprise to them...The menu was so arranged that after ten items, nothing further appeared. If, however, the operator scrolled beyond the tenth listed option, to option 13, launch control can be enabled, even though this is not visible on the screen. No satisfactory explanation was offered for this attempt to conceal the feature."

6. "...it was pointed out that the driver had to work through a particular sequence of gearshift paddle positions, in order to activate the system."




Brazil 1994

The 1st year of the drivers-aid ban, Aryton Senna who drove with the system and officially is the LAST winner of a driver who used a traction controlled car [in Adelaide 1993], while Senna strongly started to suspect the Benetton from Schumacher, because the traction of that car was huge. Keep in mind they’re team tacitcs were very flexible because of the removal of the fuel ring, what gained several seconds (!!!) in the pits, winning loads of place and time on track. (This they had untill the German GP in the 1994 season.)

Pacific GP 1994

This GP he was sure about his suspicion, he was quoted: "I’m sure of it, I have to fight against an illegal car, therefore I need to go over the limit." He only talked with friends of him about this, but Senna who knows how the system works and how a car acts when such system is in use, surely is not a person who would joke about these kind of things. His accusations never have been proven, a couple of weeks later we all know what happened.

France 1994

At the French Grand Prix in late June, Schumacher beat Hill with a strart so flawless that it hardened the suspicions lurking in many minds. This was the kind of get away that had been seen many times in the previous two seasons when the teams had enjoyed the benefit of the now proscribed traction control systems and fully automatic gearboxes.

Announcing it's ban on most kinds of computer controlled devices, the FIA had been loud in it's insistence that the new regulations would be regularly and strictly policed. In July, shortly after the British Grand prix, the FIA"s technical commision produced the findings from a software analysis company, LDRA of Liverpool which it had hired to conduct it's spot checks into computer progremas being used by Ferrari, Benetton and McLaren.

To enable these checks to be made, the teams had to first agree to surrender the source codes: the means of access to their computer programs. Ferrari, spooked by the unpunished discovery of their use of a variation of traction control at Aida, readily complied; their cars were found to be clean. McLaren and Benetton however refused to produce the source codes, claiming that to do so would first compromise the commercial confidentiality and second infringe the intellectual copyright of their software suppliers. When it was pointed out to them that LDRA is often enlisted by the British government to look into military soiftware whose confidentiality is covered by the Official Secrets Act and carries weightier consequences than a silver cup and a few bottles of chjampagne and the further inflation of over inflated egos, they gave in.

Both teams were fined $100 000.00 for attempting to obstruct the course of justice. And when the findings emerged, both appeared to have something to hide. In McLarens case, it was a gearbox program permitting automatic shifts. After much deliberating, and to the surprise of many, the FIA eventually decided that it was not illegal. But Benetton had something far more exciting up their sleves...

When LDRA's people finally got into the B194s computer software, they discoverd a hidden program, and it was dynamite: something which allowed Schumacher to make perfect starts merely by flooring the throttle and holding it there, the computer taking over to determine the correct matching of gear-changes to engine speed, ensuring that the car reached the first corner in the least possible time, with no wheel spin or side slip, all it's energy concentrated forward. Before the winter, this combination of traction control and gearbox automation would have been legal. Now, although it was strictly outlawed by the regulations, it was still there. If you knew how to find it. Because it was invisible.

It took LDRA's people a while. What you had to do was call up the softwares menu of programs, scroll down to the bottom line, put the cursor on an apparently blank line, press a particular key (no clues to that, either) and - hey presto - without anything showing on the screen, the specila program was there.

They called it "launch control" and LDRA's computer detectives also discovered the means by which the driver could activate it on the way to the starting grid. It involved a sequence of commands using the throttlle and clutch pedals and the gear shift paddles under the steering wheel. Benetton couldn't deny it's existence, but they did claim that it had not been usde since it had been banned. So why was it still there and had it's existence been so carefully disguised?

It had remained in the software, they said, because to remove it would have been too difficult. The danger was that in the purging of the program, others might become corrupted. Best leave it be. But, so that the driver couldn't accidentally engage it, and thereby unintentionally brealk the new rules, "launch control" had been hidden carefully away behind a sereis of masking procedures.

"That's enough to make me think they were cheating", and experienced software programmer with another F1 team told me. "Look, we purged our own software of all illegal systems during the winter. I did it myself. OK, our car isn't quite as sophisticated as the Benetton, but it only took me 2 days. Perfectly strightforward. And the fact that they disguised it is suspicious"
 
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yea thats only launch control the same as the wiki which they call "traction control" in brackets but only because it controls the traction at the LAUNCH of the car its not traction control as we know it today

senna cant possibly be outmatched in his eyes hes the god and its not possible there must be some other reason hes getting his arse kicked...

traction control perfect excuse...

wasnt in the source code though was it?
 
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Interesting reading about the software they tried to hide. I began following F1 in the early 90s but not as closely as today, so didn't know much about this at the time.
 
yea thats only launch control the same as the wiki which they call "traction control" in brackets but only because it controls the traction at the LAUNCH of the car its not traction control as we know it today

senna cant possibly be outmatched in his eyes hes the god and its not possible there must be some other reason hes getting his arse kicked...

traction control perfect excuse...

wasnt in the source code though was it?

Well launch control is traction control, was any evidence found that they were using it in the race in the sense we now talk about TC no, but neither was there in the starts. So officially we don't know how long they used it or for what periods.

Have a look at some of Schumis starts on youtube though, perfect getaways. Even for the starts it's such a huge advantage to be getting as so many races are won down to the first corner.

Senna did get his arse kicked but when he's competeing against a car with atleast launch control and able to put fuel in faster because of a missing filter you can see why he was pushing the boundaries.
 
how is launch control traction control? they are 2 different things but the headlines and trolling reads better if you refer to launch control as TC


schumacher still makes some of the best starts even now , your telling me the merc has launch control? . . .
 
Well, I'm a bit late to the party but I enjoyed the race a lot. The old tracks always seem to give some of the best races.

I'd like to see Lewis claw his way back now, though very unlikely. That or see Alonso take another title, he's the class of the field imo and great to watch. I'm fairly indifferent about Red Bull tbh, not sure why.

How did we get onto Schumacher cheating?

Perhaps there should be a Ferrari/Schumacher hate thread where everyone can vent.
 
Poor Button the sacrificial lamb :D

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...ves-Jenson-Button-was-a-sacrificial-lamb.html

"It was sort of like being in a McLaren sandwich. But then it looked like Hamilton developed a problem and they aborted that strategy for Jenson. It looked a little bit like he was a sacrificial lamb. I don't know. It just seemed strange."

I actually agree with him for once, they could see the pace when others started pitting, I can see no other reason why they left Button out, clearly Button knows something was wrong with his interview afterwards when he didn't understand it.
i thought button said he liked the feel on the harder tyres and decided to go with them in Q3, so it was his choice not the teams?
 
Keep in mind they’re team tacitcs were very flexible because of the removal of the fuel ring, what gained several seconds (!!!) in the pits, winning loads of place and time on track. (This they had untill the German GP in the 1994 season.)

Hmmm that may or not be true. 1994 was a controversial year but I don't think the whole fuel rig thing was ever conclusively proved was it?
 
So MSC is useless, past it, Button is average, a waste of a seat.

I suspect some people won't be happy until the grid consists of Hamilton and Alonso - the rest aren't good enough.

I don't think anybody has suggested that Button is a waste of a seat.

With regards to MSc...the jury is out. So far this season, the fact is that Rosberg has either matched or outperformed MSc. And Rosberg is not regarded as highly as Alonso or Hamilton.

Alonso and Hamilton are probably the best drivers out there, but as in any sport, there is always room to accommodate lesser drivers/sportmen. Just because you are not the best at your sport, does not mean you should quit your sport.
 
With regards to MSc...the jury is out. So far this season, the fact is that Rosberg has either matched or outperformed MSc. And Rosberg is not regarded as highly as Alonso or Hamilton.

I think Rosberg is a future world champion, he just needs a good car.


I have a question, since Hamiltons gearbox is again buggered can he change it now without penalty before the next GP? I was under the impression you had to start the GP with the hardware you started first practice with which explains his grid pen at Suzuka but what about a change between GPs? am I correct in assuming he'll not be trouble for that?
 
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I think Rosberg is a future world champion, he just needs a good car.


I have a question, since Hamiltons gearbox is again buggered can he change it now without penalty before the next GP? I was under the impression you had to start the GP with the hardware you started first practice with which explains his grid pen at Suzuka but what about a change between GPs? am I correct in assuming he'll not be trouble for that?

You can use a different engine and gearbox for FP1&2 than you do for the rest of the weekend, and Martin Whitmarsh seemed sure they had a free change before the next GP, so he must know better than us. The gearbox change wasn't because of damage in the FP1 crash, it was from the Singapore crash.
 
I don't understand the gearbox rule, why not just make it the same as engines. say 5 per year. Or what ever it works out at.

that way it doesn't mess up peoples race for a one off failure.
 
it was from the Singapore crash.

Yeah I understood that, I'm pretty sure they commented during the race that if McLaren actually spotted the fault before getting to Japan they'd have been able to drop in a new box ready for the GP penalty free. Shame really!

This was all a massively intelligent plan from Mark Webber :D
 
I think Rosberg is a future world champion, he just needs a good car.

Yeah, I agree. He's put in great performances over the last couple of seasons.

I think Michael is really suffering from the lack of testing. Whereas in the old days he could have done thousands of miles of testing to get his edge back now he's having to do it all on track. Add that to the fact that he's getting older and it all adds up to an impressive performance for a 42 year old, but not a great F1 drive.

I think he'll do better next season but Rosberg will still have his measure.
 
It took LDRA's people a while. What you had to do was call up the softwares menu of programs, scroll down to the bottom line, put the cursor on an apparently blank line, press a particular key (no clues to that, either) and - hey presto - without anything showing on the screen, the specila program was there.

They called it "launch control" and LDRA's computer detectives also discovered the means by which the driver could activate it on the way to the starting grid. It involved a sequence of commands using the throttlle and clutch pedals and the gear shift paddles under the steering wheel.

FANTASTIC. I love Benetton. It was probably Ross Brawn's idea to come up with that. :p

That's the sort of program which I would've made, though I would've done a better job of hiding it -no way should it have been possible for it to be accessed through a menu system, even if it is a blank line. Also, they should've done a better job of hiding the code itself. I would've made the code so messy to read, that to anybody else, it would've been complete nonsense. The other amateur error was when they named the section (and probably the module/function/method, "Launch Control".

The idea of using a banned system in such a covert way though, is right up my street. That said, Benetton should've had the book thrown at them for that.

I have no problems cheating, but when you get caught, you must be man enough to face up to the punishment.
 
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