Japanese Grand Prix 2010, Suzuka - Race 16/19

[dannyjo22]

you defended him my arse you have been having a go all year so dont make out you defending him lol from the anouncement of his come back you were already having a go....

You are wrong.

Exactly, people are not looking at the obvious in an atempt to desperately talk about MS failing. At no point in his career has MS liked anything other than a loose front end that he has to make a gazillion corrections to in a corner.

Right now he has a car that has a completely planted front end, which is what Jenson needs more than anyone. Which makes Brawns failing to re-sign jenson all the more curious.

IF Merc decide to build that car to MS's liking I doubt Rosberg will have much joy with it. If this was the old days and MS could have had a million test sessions the car would have started to his liking, now they are having to do it at a gp.

I think he's being written off way way too early.

Again I don't understand why people are not looking at MS's pace in bahrain against rosberg to see he isn't having anything but a bit of bad luck.

Where as Massa by the opposite token is having a heap of good luck compared to his team mate, so has more points while being utterly destroyed for pace.

Again people seem to want to conviently forget this car was designed around Button whose style is completely different to Schumachers.

I'm afraid it does wash. Button is clearly struggling with a car designed around hamilton. He has pretty much admitted as much that he has issues with the car that mclaren are working on. If the car doesn't work on a friday Jenson is pretty much lost.

To compare the drivers MS had when he swapped teams before isn't the same I'd say Rosberg could well be the fastest team mate in qualifying he's ever had. Rubens was a solid driver but we all know there was no such thing as parity in a ferrari back then. Irvine was slow. He couldn't put an exocet missle on pole.

I also don't see why we are comparing Hamiltons charge through the field and Alonsos to MS. The cars are not yet in the same league. Also all those drivers did was cut through the grid until they found someone of semi comparable pace. Then they stopped.

Again why are you not looking at MS's pace in bahrain and applauding him for keeping pace with Rosberg, in his first race. It showed in clear air with both cars next to each other MS was atleast as fast as Rosberg.

He was unlucky in oz, lets stick rosberg near the back and see how far he cuts through the field.

Of course MS is past his best, that's hardly a shocker. The tech advantage the ferraris had in the 2000's hid his very slow demise. Thats not to say even a 41 year old isn't a match for rosberg.

Let me tell you exactly whats goign to happen, MS will have things turn his way for a race or two and all of a sudden everyone like yourself will be proclaiming him to have reclaimed his speed and the old magic has returned. When all thats really lacking is a bit of running in the car and a tiny bit more luck.

Wet weather qualifying is always a bit of a lottery and usually the last cars over the line are the fastest, except Webber who gambled.

As I say the man had 3 years out and returned for his first race and was atleast as fast as britney. That for me was stunning and no one can accuse me of ever following schumacher.

I will admit I was wrong about him coming good though.

I'm really not sure this year. I've always supported Button but I really dislike Mclaren. I think thats I never warmed to Hamilton, the grey corporate robots. I think at Williams I would have loved Hamilton and actually got to hear a bit more of his own personality.

I'd like Alonso and MS to go well this year as well, for the first time ever.

I'd like Webber to beat Vettel who will make even more mistakes with the big boys back in good cars to hassle him.

I really like Williams to go well but cannot see it happening

 

[mmj_uk]

But in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can.

I can't see how it can be tyres.

He's just not used to driving an F1 car with no traction control, when he was winning at Ferrari electronics did most of the work for the drivers.

Back then he could probably just floor it out of a slow corner and the traction control would prevent any wheelspin, now if you're too heavy footed you get wheelspin and too light footed you get a slow exit, it's all about finding the perfect balance which Schumacher presumably can't.

 

[dannyjo22]

Poor Button the sacrificial lamb

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...ves-Jenson-Button-was-a-sacrificial-lamb.html

"It was sort of like being in a McLaren sandwich. But then it looked like Hamilton developed a problem and they aborted that strategy for Jenson. It looked a little bit like he was a sacrificial lamb. I don't know. It just seemed strange."

I actually agree with him for once, they could see the pace when others started pitting, I can see no other reason why they left Button out, clearly Button knows something was wrong with his interview afterwards when he didn't understand it.

 

[Fanatic]

If he pitted he would have had to switch to the soft tyres, and run them for nearly half the race. They would never have lasted long enough, so he had to go longer on the hard tyre.

 

[Duke]

If he pitted he would have had to switch to the soft tyres, and run them for nearly half the race. They would never have lasted long enough, so he had to go longer on the hard tyre.

I have a feeling they would have done.

 

[sunama]

Thanks arknor - I believe people expect too much from Schumi. He himself said this will take time I am no magician.

I think what he actually said, is that he will be going out to win races and win the championship this season (2010).

Obviously, he didnt realise that things have moved on. Drivers might have improved, technology has changed and as such he is struggling to even beat his own team-mate, let alone the likes of Alonso (who lest we forget, beat MSc into retirement in his first career).

 

[sunama]

... clearly Button knows something was wrong with his interview afterwards when he didn't understand it.

Are you suggesting that McLaren wanted Hamilton to finish ahead of Button?

 

[AGD]

If he pitted he would have had to switch to the soft tyres, and run them for nearly half the race. They would never have lasted long enough, so he had to go longer on the hard tyre.

I'm sure a lot of the other drivers lasted that long on the softer tyre. Unless there were absolutely no gaps in the field to come out into after the stop, then it made no sense to keep him out as long as they did. Button himself said as much after the race.

 

[Dutch Guy]

At first I thought that they might use Button to slow down the Red Bulls ...... until they pitted him just before the Red Bulls caught up

 

[arknor]

I can't see how it can be tyres.

He's just not used to driving an F1 car with no traction control, when he was winning at Ferrari electronics did most of the work for the drivers.

Back then he could probably just floor it out of a slow corner and the traction control would prevent any wheelspin, now if you're too heavy footed you get wheelspin and too light footed you get a slow exit, it's all about finding the perfect balance which Schumacher presumably can't.

so why is he one of the fastest starters on the field at just about every race?

i think that alone throws your traction control theory out of the window

ferrari didnt have traction control for the whole time schumacher was there either

Traction control was banned in 1993, however it was reinstated in 2001

he drove in an era with almost no driving aids and manual gear boxes and was still fast enough to keep up with senna let us not forget...

ross brawn explained how the tyres go over a cliff a few times, remember also last year jenson struggled with them at a lot of races?

 

[Setroc]

But those of us watching the live timings could see that Hamilton was so much faster than button as soon as he pitted for the hard tyres that Button would have had to pit at the same time or within a lap or two to keep Hamilton behind, which completely defeats the point of starting on hard tyres, and also risks having to battle with completely buggered tyres at the end of the race.

I did think it was strange how he had stayed out for so long, but pitting earlier would not have given him a single extra place.

If they wanted Button to play sacrificial lamb it makes absolutely no sense that Hamilton would be on a strategy which gets him slowed behind button for the first third of the race while his tyres are at their best.

 

[deko]

so why is he one of the fastest starters on the field at just about every race?

i think that alone throws your traction control theory out of the window

ferrari didnt have traction control for the whole time schumacher was there either


he drove in an era with almost no driving aids and manual gear boxes and was still fast enough to keep up with senna let us not forget...

ross brawn explained how the tyres go over a cliff a few times, remember also last year jenson struggled with them at a lot of races?

You have to wonder how much of that time MSC didn't have any traction control though, it wasn't anywhere near as hard to still run it then than it is now. There is plenty of speculation that his Benneton had TC, with the hidden options off the screen for example, and i would put money on his Ferrari having it aswell.

 

[arknor]

You have to wonder how much of that time MSC didn't have any traction control though, it wasn't anywhere near as hard to still run it then than it is now. There is plenty of speculation that his Benneton had TC, with the hidden options off the screen for example, and i would put money on his Ferrari having it aswell.

i supose the jordan did aswell?

did you know theres a famous charlie whiting quote

FIA's Charlie Whiting explains, "Ron came to me and said,'Schumacher has got traction control, he must have. It's impossible for a driver to be a second quicker than the rest of them.'

lolworthy

 

[dannyjo22]

so why is he one of the fastest starters on the field at just about every race?

ferrari didnt have traction control for the whole time schumacher was there either


he drove in an era with almost no driving aids and manual gear boxes and was still fast enough to keep up with senna let us not forget...

Of course MS can drive without aids and he did drive well without them. The trouble is he drove with them and with such an electronic advantage over his rivals for so long it hid his decline. Now he doesn't have them the pain has been exagerrated.

I doubt there is that much of his ferrari years that didn't have some form of electronic aid and the later years at Benetton certainly was more than suspicious. That team then moved onto ferrari.

25 year old MS would cope well enough with todays regulations, 41 year old MS is clearly past adapting yet again.

Are you suggesting that McLaren wanted Hamilton to finish ahead of Button?

No I'm suggesting they held him on the hard tyre for so long as to slow or attempt to slow the red bulls. The data was there during the race to see the softs held up well enough, yet they didn't pit him for another 10 laps. Same with Kobi, they should have got him in and changed instead he had to redo what he'd already done.

Not that it would have mattered that much because the damage was done from starting on the wrong tyre but it was curious they left him on it for so long when they could have looked at hamiltons softs to see how well they had held up.

 

[deko]

i supose the jordan did aswell?

did you know theres a famous charlie whiting quote



lolworthy

He drove the jordan for 1 Qualifying session and came 7th, and maybe 1 lap of the race, then went straight to Benetton.

In no way am i presenting this as fact, it is just my opinion from reading several things from over the years, and in no way am i saying that MSC and Benetton/Ferrari were the only driver/team using it.

 

[Duke]

No I'm suggesting they held him on the hard tyre for so long as to slow or attempt to slow the red bulls. The data was there during the race to see the softs held up well enough, yet they didn't pit him for another 10 laps. Same with Kobi, they should have got him in and changed instead he had to redo what he'd already done.

Not that it would have mattered that much because the damage was done from starting on the wrong tyre but it was curious they left him on it for so long when they could have looked at hamiltons softs to see how well they had held up.

Yeah you would have thought that they would have either backed him into the top three, to help Hamilton and/or to try and cause them to go off by the top three closing in together and racing each other much harder OR bring him in early... but as said earlier, they just brought him in when they got fairly close, which was a bit pointless.

 

[dannyjo22]

lolworthy

Yes it is.

Full on traction control no, cute engine mapping programs and predictive spin most definately. I was at circuits where you could hear the ferrari 'miss fire' and drivers behind mentioned it many times.

So much so they all started doing it, trying to catch up.

You cannot compete with a car that altered it's engine mapping on each and every corner at every circuit. It was engineering brilliance.

 

[arknor]

He drove the jordan for 1 Qualifying session and came 7th, and maybe 1 lap of the race, then went straight to Benetton.

In no way am i presenting this as fact, it is just my opinion from reading several things from over the years, and in no way am i saying that MSC and Benetton/Ferrari were the only driver/team using it.

yea on a circuit he never drove before but must have been because of traction control because hes had driver aids since he was born.

i think maybe he was sent from the future, possibly to kill lewis hamilton the savior of mankind ?

i suspect maybe ron dennis was sent from the future to stop schumacher? it seems to make sense but then who was hakkinen? also from the future perhaps?

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Who started arknor off about Schumacher?

I thought it was well known he had hidden traction control code in the ECU?

 

[Dave M]

So MSC is useless, past it, Button is average, a waste of a seat.

I suspect some people won't be happy until the grid consists of Hamilton and Alonso - the rest aren't good enough.