Japanese Grand Prix 2011, Suzuka Circuit - Race 15/19

Actually, MSc was pushed out by Ferrari as they wanted Kimi, and did not want to give MSc the outright number 1 role in the team he demanded. So in fairness to MSc, I don't think it was a case of him not wanting a lapdog, it was more a case of Ferrari not wanting to employ someone who wanted a lapdog.

His retirement announcement did come across as someone who had been given a Ferrari designed script to read.

And Arknor, I was going to send you a giant full stop.
 
FrankJH said:
and here means what exactly in the grand scheme of things? laughs

50 regular posters - maybe a few more, compared to 1000's of "real" f1 fans, if not millions world wide.....hmmm just shows how insignificant absolutely any "majority view" really means.....
Click to expand...
Bless you for your insight :). Fancy picking up Arknors baton as you seem to agree with his stance, hence the scoff. I look forward to you adding something useful to argument...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Last edited:
Skeeter said:
Actually, MSc was pushed out by Ferrari as they wanted Kimi, and did not want to give MSc the outright number 1 role in the team he demanded. So in fairness to MSc, I don't think it was a case of him not wanting a lapdog, it was more a case of Ferrari not wanting to employ someone who wanted a lapdog.

His retirement announcement did come across as someone who had been given a Ferrari designed script to read.

And Arknor, I was going to send you a giant full stop.
Click to expand...

Pushed out? I I think you best do some research, Todt wanted him to stay without a doubt even after MS said he was wanting to retire after the 3rd race, Ferrari persuaded him to consider it which is why it went on so long, he had a contract on the table.

Anyone saying Ferrari pushed MS out is seriously deluded, he spoke to the BBC and said he had many offers to go elsewhere, if he was being pushed he would have took another offer, no sadly he decided he wanted to retire prematurely.
 
Mr Men said:
So Alonso in a Minardi was competition for MS? as soon as he got a capable car he beat MS into retirement :p or was it MS was scared to race against Kimi and not have a lapdog, can't decide :D
Click to expand...

wasnt the renault widely regarded as beeing the better car?
msc was most likely forced into retirement go and watch the "schumacher last lap for ferrari" video and see how domenicali forces a hug from schumacher while todt and everyone else gets generous hugs ;)

also this makes for an interesting read http://www.isport.in/f1/the-true-story-of-michael-schumachers-retirement-414

i doubt schumacher was scared of racing kimi as the ferrari would have been designed around schumacher still for atleast 1 more year and he was already well and truly comfortable in the team.

if kimi and schumacher were both at ferrari do you really see kimi as beeing the type of guy to be hitting the test track at all hours or the day and spending loads of time with the team?

lets face it ferrari hiring kimi was one big mistake he wasnt the type of driver that does well at ferrari he was to shy and not the type of guy to go the extra mile.
 
arknor said:
wasnt the renault widely regarded as beeing the better car?
Click to expand...

In 2005 - yes.
In 2006 - Ferrari had a car capable of winning the title. Some races Renault dominated, while in others Ferrari were faster. I remember vividly - I think it was Monza - MSc was closing in on Alonso at a rate of 2-3s/lap (Alonso leading, MSc 2nd). The commentators were all saying that when MSc reaches Alonso, he will pass him with ease. In reality, when MSc reached Alonso, he just couldnt overtake him. That was the race where I realised just how good Alonso was. Alonso then went on to win his 2nd title.

It seems strange that although Alonso has been widely regarded as the best driver since 2006, in 5 seasons, he has not been able to win the title.
 
I do not understand the 'Alonso is the best driver on the grid' arguments any more.

In 2005 and 2006, yes. In 2007, yeah, I can understand why people would carry the opinion over from his past form. But other than a few glimpses of brilliance, what exactly has he done in the last 5 years that warrant him to still be labelled the best driver on the grid?

Often when you ask people why, they will say its because he beat Schumacher and is a double world title. Thats fair enough, but that was 5 years ago.
 
In 2010, Alonso finished a close 2nd in the WDC. This was in a car which much slower than the eventual winner. In the end the only reason he lost was the serious **** up in strategy, in the final race of the season.

In 2011 (the season is still in progress, we can't make a final conclusion), he is continuing where he left off. He is doing a great job with a Ferrari that is not consistently good. You only have to compare his race pace with Massa's to understand that the Ferrari, at present is not great. In the middle of the season Ferrari was becoming competitive and this culminated in a race win at Silverstone.

Alonso is a fantastic driver and came top in a poll, when team principals were asked who the best driver in 2010 was. In the same year, Alonso's peers were asked who the best in F1 is. Alonso came top.

On top of all this is his consistency. Alonso was fantastic in 2005/6 and he is showing he is fantastic in 2011. The guy is top class in virtually every department.

There is more...but I think I've said enough.
 
sunama said:
In 2010, Alonso finished a close 2nd in the WDC. This was in a car which much slower than the eventual winner. In the end the only reason he lost was the serious **** up in strategy, in the final race of the season.

In 2011 (the season is still in progress, we can't make a final conclusion), he is continuing where he left off. He is doing a great job with a Ferrari that is not consistently good. You only have to compare his race pace with Massa's to understand that the Ferrari, at present is not great. In the middle of the season Ferrari was becoming competitive and this culminated in a race win at Silverstone.

Alonso is a fantastic driver and came top in a poll, when team principals were asked who the best driver in 2010 was. In the same year, Alonso's peers were asked who the best in F1 is. Alonso came top.

On top of all this is his consistency. Alonso was fantastic in 2005/6 and he is showing he is fantastic in 2011. The guy is top class in virtually every department.

There is more...but I think I've said enough.
Click to expand...

In 2007 he was equalled by his team mate in the best car, and failed to win the title. In 2008 and 2009 he failed to make any progression with a lack luster Renault (don't most people say that a truly great driver can make a bad car look great). In 2010, when his 3rd title was sat there right infront of him waiting to be taken, he couldn't make the one move he needed to win it.

The arguments against are as strong as the arguments for. He is a good driver, definitely, but he is not the far and away best out there like people seem to think he is.
 
No that's because he's consistent (I'm not a big fan this is an objective post)

2005 - won the championship
2006 - won the championship
2007 - one point less than the champion after going through a turbulent season
2008 - back to Renault can't remember what his point tally was but he was very consistent
2009 - another year with a slow Renault but with consistent scoring
2010 - Ferrari, championship contender till the last race in not the best car of the season
2011 - Ferrari, 3rd in the rankings right now with definitely not the 3rd best car in the paddock, ahead of Ramilton & Webber with much better cars.

It's his consistency rather than any one aspect of racing (speed, etc) that he's been rated the best on...


Again, NOT a fan, just an objective psot
 
Skeeter said:
In 2007 he was equalled by his team mate in the best car, and failed to win the title. In 2008 and 2009 he failed to make any progression with a lack luster Renault (don't most people say that a truly great driver can make a bad car look great). In 2010, when his 3rd title was sat there right infront of him waiting to be taken, he couldn't make the one move he needed to win it.

The arguments against are as strong as the arguments for. He is a good driver, definitely, but he is not the far and away best out there like people seem to think he is.
Click to expand...
2008: FA 5th in the WDC teammate in 12th
2009: FA finished 9th with 26 points, teammate left the team after 10 races with 0 points (by which time FA had 20+ points)

I can't really see your point about these years

I won't comment on 2007 as it's just another debate really but it's fair to say he wasn't at home there & as an F1 driver unless you're loved by your team (Number 1 driver or not) you can't perform at your best. with Ron Dennis we all knew who the love was for in the team...

2010, he was languishing in the points until Silverstone, almost won the championship, that is no mean feat - about the last race... no one in the car from that position could've won the WDC not even great Michael himself.

2011, doing a super job.
 
Skeeter said:
Last time I checked, an F1 championship counted races at ALL circuits.

You do like cherry picking your stats, don't you.
Click to expand...

i wasnt cherry picking any stat its well known the bridgestone cars were out of the runnign that year.

we all know what happened to renault when the mass dampener was declared illegal mid season in 2006 aswell

you like ignoring facts :P
 
Last edited:
alchemistkevin said:
That is not to say I don't agree with you Skeeter... he needs to get another WDC or two to prove beyond doubt that he's the best...
Click to expand...

Alonso is one of the best drivers on the grid, without doubt. He is not 'the best' as some people think, and definitely not by the margin that people think.

Theres actually a good similarity between him and Vettel. Start as a test driver, get into a low down team and perform well, get into a higher team, the car improves, and then win back to back titles.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom