Joe Lycett - Qatar/Beckham debate

[fez]

unfortunately it didn’t, and there are lots of reasons why it didn’t. But just because it didn’t change doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and protest and call out these regimes.
Let’s never criticise anyone or anything or protest anything ever again incase it doesn’t immediately change things. That’s your argument and it’s absurd.

No his argument is that all the BS about "shining a light", "calling out", "taking a stand" is just performative BS that doesn't do anything in all these cases. Qatar isn't going to change one iota because people in countries they already think little of are complaining about their human rights records or views on basically anything.

 

[Ahleckz]

No his argument is that all the BS about "shining a light", "calling out", "taking a stand" is just performative BS that doesn't do anything in all these cases. Qatar isn't going to change one iota because people in countries they already think little of are complaining about their human rights records or views on basically anything.

But things do change. Views move on. People get given rights and freedoms. Just because it’s not instant doesn’t mean protest doesn’t work.
There’ll be generations under the current ruling elite who will have different views, and need allies to help navigate this. To not feel alone and burdened by their view that a society shouldn’t be built on slavery and need help to change it. By having protest they know that they aren’t alone and it provides that impetus to keep going.
Sure, change takes a while but it is often helped along by protest rather than protest being the defining thing that creates or cements that change.

It just seems so inhumane to not criticise these countries because the result we want isn’t instant as much as we would like it to be.
Again, if you aren’t part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

 

[Richie]

It’s cliche, but we can either be part of the solution or we are part of the problem

Again, if you aren’t part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

Careful... That's starting down the road of saying people support Qatar's position unless they overtly show opposition to it.

 

[Lysander]

unfortunately it didn’t, and there are lots of reasons why it didn’t. But just because it didn’t change doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and protest and call out these regimes.
Let’s never criticise anyone or anything or protest anything ever again incase it doesn’t immediately change things. That’s your argument and it’s absurd.

Have you ever been to the Middle East? If you have you would realise that taking a stand does nothing for major issues like this. In fact, it causes problems. These values are so ingrained in their culture and their history that it is a move of purest disrespect and ignorance to try and change them as a foreigner.

In fact, it's not just about their history, it's about their identity.

But things do change. Views move on. People get given rights and freedoms. Just because it’s not instant doesn’t mean protest doesn’t work.
There’ll be generations under the current ruling elite who will have different views, and need allies to help navigate this. To not feel alone and burdened by their view that a society shouldn’t be built on slavery and need help to change it. By having protest they know that they aren’t alone and it provides that impetus to keep going.
Sure, change takes a while but it is often helped along by protest rather than protest being the defining thing that creates or cements that change.

This isn't about trying to stop them knocking down a public building or tarmacking a community park, you're talking about trying to overturn the sexual belief system of not only a nation, but the second biggest religion in the world.

You realise how huge of a thing that is, and it ain't going to be changed by painting a rainbow on the side of a plane. The best thing anyone can do at this stage is just let them be and come home in one piece.

 

[Ahleckz]

Have you ever been to the Middle East? If you have you would realise that taking a stand does nothing for major issues like this. In fact, it causes problems. These values are so ingrained in their culture and their history that it is a move of purest disrespect and ignorance to try and change them as a foreigner.

In fact, it's not just about their history, it's about their identity.



This isn't about trying to stop them knocking down a public building or tarmacking a community park, you're talking about trying to overturn the sexual belief system of not only a nation, but the second biggest religion in the world.

You realise how huge of a thing that is, and it ain't going to be changed by painting a rainbow on the side of a plane. The best thing anyone can do at this stage is just let them be and come home in one piece.

Yea I’ve lived in Abu Dhabi and travelled the region.

I think we can protest and raise awareness both there and here. There are many gay Qataris and I think for them it is a positive step to see footballers and fans showing that homosexuality is OK. I don’t think ignoring the plight of these people because it’s unlikely things will change soon is OK.

There are many slaves building the stadia, and we should be protesting about that. You can’t justify that by “it’s their culture”.

 

[Thekwango]

unfortunately it didn’t, and there are lots of reasons why it didn’t. But just because it didn’t change doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and protest and call out these regimes.
Let’s never criticise anyone or anything or protest anything ever again incase it doesn’t immediately change things. That’s your argument and it’s absurd.

if you read my posts you'd know what my argument was. the time for protesting is long gone. fans protesting now is pointless. i never once said we shouldn't criticise or protest anything, show me where i said that and how you came to think it was my argument.

what's absurd is people like you getting all hot and bothered about this now when the WC is about to kick off. those wanting to protest now, what did they do when it was announced Qatar were the hosts, what did you do?
that was the time for protest. that was the time to put pressure on the various countries FA's to boycott, that was the time to put pressure on international players to make themselves unavailable.
what's absurd is Virgin renaming their plane to Rain Bow, while still flying regular non 'Rain Bow' flights in and out of Qatar, if Virgin wanted to make a stand there was a ***** sight more they could have done.
what's absurd is you thinking anything any fans say or do now will make one iota of difference.
what's absurd is onions like Joe Lycett trying to 'gotcha' someone like David Beckham, who has probably done a whole lot more for the LGBTQ movement than lycett will ever do, to garner a little bit of fame while pretending to be fighting for peoples human rights.

 

[arknor]

It’s cliche, but we can either be part of the solution or we are part of the problem.

how tolerant of you

 

[Thekwango]

I don’t think ignoring the plight of these people because it’s unlikely things will change soon is OK.

no one is suggesting ignoring the problem, literally nobody.

There are many slaves building the stadia, and we should be protesting about that.

and there's the crux.....you're too late to the party. the stadia are build, the slave death true numbers almost certainly buried.
we should HAVE been protesting that, along with all the other problems ordinary folk face in Qatar. we should have been balloting our mps, putting the heat on government to step in, force the FA to stand the national team down for the tournament, get players to pull out, get sponsors to pull out - those are actions that might have had an impact. but it's too late for that, the WC kicks off in a matter of days, so what do you want to do now? wave a rainbow flag at the tv? argue with folk on the internet? the time to use the world cup as a stick to batter the Qatari government is gone.

 

[Hotwired]

What the hell is this specific pressure on Beckham for.

Should ignore the muppet making the demands on sheer principle of not giving in to the blackmail.

He agrees to this aforementioned muppets demands he makes himself an unreliable person to assign responsible roles to and makes himself part of an agenda he did not plan on being part of.

 

[fez]

no one is suggesting ignoring the problem, literally nobody.

and there's the crux.....you're too late to the party. the stadia are build, the slave death true numbers almost certainly buried.
we should HAVE been protesting that, along with all the other problems ordinary folk face in Qatar. we should have been balloting our mps, putting the heat on government to step in, force the FA to stand the national team down for the tournament, get players to pull out, get sponsors to pull out - those are actions that might have had an impact. but it's too late for that, the WC kicks off in a matter of days, so what do you want to do now? wave a rainbow flag at the tv? argue with folk on the internet? the time to use the world cup as a stick to batter the Qatari government is gone.

Exactly. Its like people who sent thoughts and prayers but do absolutely nothing that would actually work and then profess to be deeply affected by an issue.

If you want to do something serious the time has probably passed but if you still want to do your utmost, don't watch it, boycott sponsors. All this performative ***** is just a way for people to have their cake and eat it too. "Yes I will watch every second of the WC but I will be doing it in protest and shining a light on their horrible culture".

There is something I especially hate about people who shout the loudest but when it comes to real action that negatively effects themselves they magically don't want to know. Thoughts and prayers.

What the hell is this specific pressure on Beckham for.

Should ignore the muppet making the demands on sheer principle of not giving in to the blackmail.

He agrees to this aforementioned muppets demands he makes himself an unreliable person to assign responsible roles to and makes himself part of an agenda he did not plan on being part of.

They are pressuring Beckham because he is a very well known footballer/celebrity with actual clout and someone who is basically a metaphor for the whole WC in Qatar. Someone who is already fantastically rich and still not willing to put his morals before money and is quite happy to help the Qataris in their sportswashing.

 

[fez]

But things do change. Views move on. People get given rights and freedoms. Just because it’s not instant doesn’t mean protest doesn’t work.
There’ll be generations under the current ruling elite who will have different views, and need allies to help navigate this. To not feel alone and burdened by their view that a society shouldn’t be built on slavery and need help to change it. By having protest they know that they aren’t alone and it provides that impetus to keep going.
Sure, change takes a while but it is often helped along by protest rather than protest being the defining thing that creates or cements that change.

It just seems so inhumane to not criticise these countries because the result we want isn’t instant as much as we would like it to be.
Again, if you aren’t part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

They know they aren't alone if they look outside their own borders even a little. The Qataris aren't ignorant of our views, they are contemptuous of them. Any young gay man in Qatar will know that outside of his country most of the world has 0 issues with his sexuality. We aren't introducing a new concept to them or another way of thinking. Change like this has to come from within a country.

 

[Hotwired]

They are pressuring Beckham because he is a very well known footballer/celebrity with actual clout and someone who is basically a metaphor for the whole WC in Qatar. Someone who is already fantastically rich and still not willing to put his morals before money and is quite happy to help the Qataris in their sportswashing.

Beckham is spending as much time as possible trying to get his knighthood by being visible and useful.

He might not be making his fortune with brains but he surely knows he's going to be marked down if he so much as acknowledges this petty blackmail.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

am i missing something on title ?

It's detailed in the OP

 

[fez]

Beckham is spending as much time as possible trying to get his knighthood by being visible and useful.

He might not be making his fortune with brains but he surely knows he's going to be marked down if he so much as acknowledges this petty blackmail.

I would say its the complete opposite. He will lose marks for taking Qatars blood money.

 

[Hotwired]

I would say its the complete opposite. He will lose marks for taking Qatars blood money.

Who are you thinking about. The public doesn't elect people for honours. He needs to impress the people that do give out the honours.

 

[Dis86]

No his argument is that all the BS about "shining a light", "calling out", "taking a stand" is just performative BS that doesn't do anything in all these cases. Qatar isn't going to change one iota because people in countries they already think little of are complaining about their human rights records or views on basically anything.

This is what these people don't get. Qatar finds our views as abhorrent as we find theirs. We ain't gonna change are opinion and nor are they.

 

[NVP]

*our

 

[Dirk Diggler]

This is what these people don't get. Qatar finds our views as abhorrent as we find theirs. We ain't gonna change are opinion and nor are they.

It's not about changing Qatar, it's about changing FIFA and any other western entity that thinks we should be doing business by staging tournaments with countries like this and expecting our residents to travel there and contribute to their economy.

 

[Dis86]

*our

Please contact Samsung - their autocorrect is crazy.

 

[Dis86]

It's not about changing Qatar, it's about changing FIFA and any other western entity that thinks we should be doing business by staging tournaments with countries like this and expecting our residents to travel there and contribute to their economy.

I disagree. It should really be about both. FIFA should be the prime target in this however we already know they're utterly corrupt.

Edit: the other thing though is it's always an individual's choice to travel there or watch these tournaments. That's where we can make the difference and our feelings known.