John Terry Racism Trial

[Richdog]

It baffles me how in this day and age people can't differentiate between being a racist and simply making a racially offensive comment, how on earth can someone who is loved by the Chelsea dressing room be a racist when half of the players there are black themselves?

Like Morba said earlier in sports players will say whatever it takes to rile the opposition the most (ie. sledging in cricket), most people would not stoop that low but obviously JT is not that high on moral values, it doesn't make him a racist though.

I agree 100% with this, making a comment about race does not black and white (pun unintentional, honest) make you a racist in a true sense. If someone wants to be a complete and utter ****wad they can make a racist comment in the hope that it will rile someone up to the point of driving them crazy, goading them to the max, but it does not automatically make you a racist... just a cold and calculating ****, or more commonly just an ignorant wretch.

Everyone has the ability to say terrible things when in the heat of the moment, less intelligent people may resort to race in order to strike a quick and dirty low blow as they know it will have an impact... but the fact is that whatever Terrys intentions, a footballer should know that his actions are going to be publically scrutinised, and that racial discrimination a huge topic for the FA since years now. The world is watching, and despite your actual feelings towards race, you have to be an epic first class idiot to even think for a second that there will be no backlash from it when on TV.

It is never alright to make racial comments towards anyone with the intent of hurting them, on or off the pitch, but making a racial comment does not automatically make you a through and through racist. In fact, considering John Terrys footballing history and who he has played with for most of his career, it is massively unlikely he is a racist... and more likely that he is just an absolute twit who resorted to making a racist comment in the face of nothing more intelligent or cutting he could think of to say.

Still makes him a massive **** either way.

I do know what you mean - But I don't seem to remember any Ginger slaves? Or fat ones? Old ones? Tall ones? Not remembering any of these. Also, can't imagine there is anyone been banned from a bus or Cafe for any of those.

Racism is worse because of the years and years of discrimination people used to go through. Racism will always be worse, because of what our ancestors did.

This is exactly the problem, and a facepalm goes out to anyone who compares racism to anything else (ginger, fat) for any other reason. It is a direct result of centuries of oppression, the stain and stigma of which still lives on and will do for some time. End of story.

 

[BaZ87]

Not really no. I've said things I've instantly regretted but that's through social implications rather than me not believing in what I said. In the heat of the moment you might say something you regret but it's still something you said, and that he went to a racial comment speaks volumes about his character (Just as anyone who went to a sexist comment or any other attribute)

Using your own examples, you've never flippantly called somebody a tall/short/fat/four eyed <insert insult>? And if you have does that mean you discriminate against tall/short/fat/people that wear glasses?

 

[Shamikebab]

I do know what you mean - But I don't seem to remember any Ginger slaves? Or fat ones? Old ones? Tall ones? Not remembering any of these. Also, can't imagine there is anyone been banned from a bus or Cafe for any of those.

Racism is worse because of the years and years of discrimination people used to go through. Racism will always be worse, because of what our ancestors did.

So you're agreeing with me then As I said, it's the social implications not the logical analysis of it.

Using your own examples, you've never flippantly called somebody a tall/short/fat/four eyed <insert insult>? And if you have does that mean you discriminate against tall/short/fat/people that wear glasses?

Of course I have, and of course it does. Most of the time social implications mean I don't but I have and I'm sure I will again at some point.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I do know what you mean - But I don't seem to remember any Ginger slaves? Or fat ones? Old ones? Tall ones? Not remembering any of these. Also, can't imagine there is anyone been banned from a bus or Cafe for any of those.

Racism is worse because of the years and years of discrimination people used to go through. Racism will always be worse, because of what our ancestors did.

You don't remember any ginger slaves, of fat ones or old ones, tall ones, funny, not a single black slave was fat, old or tall? Anyway, you remember a black slave, could you tell me his or her name or where you met him or her?

There were always white slaves also, world wide at various stages in our history. Gladiators, forcing slaves to kill each other to survive a little longer, etc, etc. The way black people were exploited for slavery was unjust and nasty, and IIRC historically a lot of the slave trade was run by black people selling other black people. Asia had and still has slaves, Africa had slaves LONG before white people ever turned up there, Islamic countries had slavery.

Hell there is a very strong case for suggesting people who get up tired, go to work, work 10 hours for minimum wage, go home to a very small home, sleep and repeat every day till they die while billionaires lounge around in mansions, jet setting around the world and generally enjoying life, are in fact slaves.

So no slavery exclusive to black people being enslaved by whites is so utterly incorrect as to be a joke. HUGE portions of Africa were enslaved before, during and after a huge number of black people were sold to American's to be slaves there, they neither started it nor did it worse, and infact it was a pretty huge deal to rise up and revolt against it in the way they did.

Aside from that, Ferdinand has never, and will never be a slave. Plenty of white people if they went back through a family tree a couple hundred years could be descendants of slaves. The entire argument is laughably stupid, and a heck of a lot of history suggests that a huge portion of american's that are descendants of slaves are in a far better position now than they would be in Africa(which in no way makes it right.... nor white peoples fault). There are more white women and children illegally brought into the country today(used in the sex industry) and used as slaves than black people are slaves in this country, and these are probably the single worst treated group of people in history, and it happens TODAY, in our very country.

So other than slavery being a really really AWFUL excuse for why racism is bad, a much better argument is how black people were treated for a LONG time while FREE by white people, the fact is racism ISN'T magically worse than anything else, we've arbitrarily decided to react as if it is, which is very very different.

Choosing to dislike ANYONE you don't know based on any arbitrary feature they happen to have, is disgraceful, ignorant and shouldn't be tolerated, but in just about every case except for colour, is treated as perfectly acceptable.

 

[BaZ87]

Of course I have, and of course it does.

What? You discriminate against short/tall/fat/thin people?

 

[Loki]

No it's not hilarious. What is hilarious is the people that believe that somebody that may have used a racially offensive term in the heat of the moment is automatically a racist.

BaZ what constitutes racism then. Are we saying that every Tom Dick and Terry can go around getting wound up and say **** off you black **** and not be racist therefore regardless of context, we should dismiss the claims of it being a racist comment.


Anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows that the mechanics of racism is context. There is no other context to be had when a white guy chooses to differentiate purely on the colour of somebody's skin. Thats what Terry has done. What do people have to do nowadays to be taken branded as a racist, run through the streets with burning crosses and pointy hats before they are took seriously.

If it's a racially offensive term then how an earth could it be anything other than racist. Or do we use the rule of thumb he has black team mates so that makes it cool or his grandfather was black so there is no way it could be racist.

 

[BaZ87]

BaZ what constitutes racism then. Are we saying that every Tom Dick and Terry can go around getting wound up and say **** off you black **** and not be racist therefore regardless of context, we should dismiss the claims of it being a racist comment......

Of course we shouldn't dismiss it but simply using a term doesn't automatically make somebody a racist.

Not specific to Terry: if somebody makes a flippant, stupid comment in the heat of the moment, does that mean they're a racist? Not unless their actively discriminating against somebody because of their race.

As I said above, take race out of it; if you've ever called somebody a short arse does that mean you discriminate against short people? Which I guess makes you shortist'

Bringing it back to Terry; if we assume for arguments sake that he said what he's accused and if that was an isolated comment, should somebody be branded a racist for one stupid comment that he quite possibly didn't mean?

 

[Tummy]

I do know what you mean - But I don't seem to remember any Ginger slaves? Or fat ones? Old ones? Tall ones? Not remembering any of these. Also, can't imagine there is anyone been banned from a bus or Cafe for any of those.

Racism is worse because of the years and years of discrimination people used to go through. Racism will always be worse, because of what our ancestors did.

Indeed.

BaZ what constitutes racism then. Are we saying that every Tom Dick and Terry can go around getting wound up and say **** off you black **** and not be racist therefore regardless of context, we should dismiss the claims of it being a racist comment.

Anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows that the mechanics of racism is context. There is no other context to be had when a white guy chooses to differentiate purely on the colour of somebody's skin. Thats what Terry has done. What do people have to do nowadays to be taken branded as a racist, run through the streets with burning crosses and pointy hats before they are took seriously.

If it's a racially offensive term then how an earth could it be anything other than racist. Or do we use the rule of thumb he has black team mates so that makes it cool or his grandfather was black so there is no way it could be racist.

This.

It's amazing how many people fail to grasp these concepts and instead make excuses and condone racism.

Also; re the Suarez thing, while I think the FA were correct in a lengthy ban and making an example of him, I also don't think that case is too similar.

 

[Tummy]

Bringing it back to Terry; if we assume for arguments sake that he said what he's accused and if that was an isolated comment, should somebody be branded a racist for one stupid comment that he quite possibly didn't mean?

Well he would have been found guilty in a court of law.

'I killed one person that I didn't mean to and I'm branded a Murderer'

 

[BaZ87]

Well he would have been found guilty in a court of law.

'I killed one person that I didn't mean to and I'm branded a Murderer'

Sorry, what charge has been brought against Terry? Has he been charged with being a racist?

And what makes somebody a racist Tummy? I'd love to hear your answer.

edit: and if you didn't mean to kill somebody it wouldn't make you a murderer :/ If you're going to try tp be sarcastic give it a bit of thought next time.

 

[Tummy]

Sorry, what charge has been brought against Terry? Has he been charged with being a racist?

And what makes somebody a racist Tummy? I'd love to hear your answer.

edit: and if you didn't mean to kill somebody wouldn't make you a murderer :/ If you're going to try and be sarcastic give it a bit of thought next time.

iirc it's a racially-aggravated public disorder act; using racist language is what the CPS have charged him with?

No, the murderer quip wasn't a serious retort, I was attempting to make a point, alas I didn't explain it fully enough. It was made in relation to the trial by media, he will of course recieve which was in reply to your 'branded' comment.

 

[BaZ87]

iirc it's a racially-aggravated public disorder act; using racist language is what the CPS have charged him with?

No, the murderer quip wasn't a serious retort, I was attempting to make a point, alas I didn't explain it fully enough. It was made in relation to the trial by media, he will of course recieve which was in reply to your 'branded' comment.

So if Terry isn't being charged with "being a racist" why mention that he would have been found guilty in a court of law?

Using a racially offensive term does not automatically make somebody a racist. If they've used that term because they believe that race is inferior then they are racist. If they've just made a stupid comment but don't have any racist beliefs and do not discriminate against somebody because of their race, they're not a racist. That of course doesn't condone what they've said however there is a very big difference between making a comment that could be seen as racially offensive and actually being a racist.

None of the above is specific to Terry's case, it's a general point.

 

[Loki]

BaZ in your opinion how many times would somebody have to use language that your average Joe would deem offensive to be branded a racist ?

I hear some people saying that well if it's the first time or no previous history then it should be took lighter compared to somebody with a previous history.

Personally, I think the first time, is once too many and it's not acceptable. Each to their own I guess.

To use your example of being a short arse then I get that a fair bit around the office but I don't take offence because of the context it is played out in. I guess the skin color issue has many layers of cultural and racial metaphors that for good or bad you can't separate from it. We all know when you put certain words together their is usually a connotation that goes with it. I can't think of a single instance where someone being called a black **** or a p**i ******* would have anything but negative connotations.

 

[BaZ87]

BaZ in your opinion how many times would somebody have to use language that your average Joe would deem offensive to be branded a racist ?.....

If somebody regularly makes racially offensive comments then naturally people will assume they have those racist beliefs. Theoretically somebody could go around making racially offensive comments all day without actually being a racist; they may simply be an idiot that's looking to cause offense rather than actually believing that a certain race is inferior.

To use your example of being a short arse then I get that a fair bit around the office but I don't take offence because of the context it is played out in......

Take it out of the office banter context. If you got in an argument with a total stranger and he called you a short ****, would that mean that he therefore discriminates against short people?

 

[jakeke]

The BNP voters out in force

 

[Vonhelmet]

Take it out of the office banter context. If you got in an argument with a total stranger and he called you a short ****, would that mean that he therefore discriminates against short people?

It would be more offensive to be called short in that context than in others, as there is likely more venom, if that's what you're asking. Similarly, there's a difference between referring to someone as "black" and spitting out the words "black ****", thereby conflating the blackness with the offensive term.

 

[BaZ87]

The BNP voters out in force

Are you just saying that for effect or has anybody said something which would make you post such a stupid thing?

 

[jakeke]

Stupid conversion, had it before on here and seen it before on here many times. No point in repeating yourself. One thing that needs to be said is that when you say the word black inbetween the other two words, you have to believe that person could have underlying beliefs to be that aggressive and offensive, to dismiss it as people have in here is unnerving and illogical

To say what he said suggests he has racist feelings, obviously, not the other way? If he wasn't racist he wouldn't have racist thoughts and he wouldn't express them as he has here.

 

[Robbo]

I'm no fan of John Terry, but I think this particular situation is a case of someone 'being racist' rather than 'being a racist'.

 

[BaZ87]

It would be more offensive to be called short in that context than in others, if that's what you're asking. There's a difference between referring to someone as "black" and spitting out the words "black ****".

That wasn't what I was asking. The original question stemmed back to something Shami said earlier in the thread. He said that he believes that calling somebody a short **** is equally offensive as calling them a black **** and also that calling somebody a black **** automatically makes you a racist.