Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

[heeeed]

The BMA is asking for talks. The government are the ones declining, just doing the same they always do with negotiations. A strike ( with an incredibly high mandate from members I might add) is telling the government we won’t accept you mugging us off with your usual low ball offers. The fact that doctors on this forum are telling you the level of feeling and how people are quitting or moving abroad and yet you still won’t accept that as truth shows that strikes are probably needed to get the message across.

I am neither a junior, nor a member of the BMA. My skin in the game is that I am very worried about us losing a significant amount if doctors over the coming years which we can ill afford

 

[thenewoc]

Fair enough if you think that on balance, it’s the doctors taking the mick not the government, otherwise that argument just falls apart.

I think the two positions are miles apart and not talking isn't going to solve anything. I think half that figure would be a huge award to get in one year. How long is a junior doctor likely to stay as a junior doctor before rising to the next rung on the ladder? The £14 thing just doesn't seem like it's a long term norm. If there's shortages of staff across the board then these junior doctors surely rise to better positions fairly quickly.

 

[Freakbro]

How long is a junior doctor likely to stay as a junior doctor before rising to the next rung on the ladder?

The "next rung" is a consultant

A junior doctor is a doctor undergoing an average of 10 years (range 8-12) further training, after 5 (range 4-6) years at medical school (university), to be a Consultant making a total of 15 years (range 12-18 years) training.

The £14 thing just doesn't seem like it's a long term norm. If there's shortages of staff across the board then these junior doctors surely rise to better positions fairly quickly.

You are taking the word junior too literally, it has a different meaning in the medical world to general usage.

 

[CapitalOne]

I think the two positions are miles apart and not talking isn't going to solve anything. I think half that figure would be a huge award to get in one year. How long is a junior doctor likely to stay as a junior doctor before rising to the next rung on the ladder? The £14 thing just doesn't seem like it's a long term norm. If there's shortages of staff across the board then these junior doctors surely rise to better positions fairly quickly.

Not talking is exactly why we have strikes now, the government have consistently said it’s not their business to negotiate otherwise we would be beyond the initial ask. I know you think the government are doing the right thing, but you’re not a doctor and I’d wager government pay rises have zero impact on your circumstances with regards to pay. To make this fair let’s evaluate what you do and then make an idealogical judgement on what you should be paid for it, then implement that and see how you like it….not sure I’ll be needing your services like I might with someone like a doctor.

 

[thenewoc]

The "next rung" is a consultant





You are taking the word junior too literally, it has a different meaning in the medical world to general usage.

I see but £14 is surely the lowest of a range of pay scale bands for that role. So why are Trusts holding junior doctors on the lowest pay band and not advancing them to higher bands? It seems Trusts may be causing a false market by doing so that is obviously at odds with the private sector as one can't just invent a system that thinks it isn't in competition with the private sector.

 

[CapitalOne]

I see but £14 is surely the lowest of a range of pay scale bands for that role. So why are Trusts holding junior doctors on the lowest pay band and not advancing them to higher bands? It seems Trusts may be causing a false market by doing so that is obviously at odds with the private sector as one can't just invent a system that thinks it isn't in competition with the private sector.

Yeah we get it - it’s not the government or austerity. It’s the Trusts. It’s definitely not the government. No siree.

I actually did some work for what used to be the BPMF, which did doctor training placements. Long time ago, but more experience than you.

What is it you do again?

 

[Chris Wilson]

Been a bit tied up working today. Hasn't Barclay and the government capitulated yet? Stout fellas' Keep it up! They are fighting not, in the main, well intentioned altruistic medical professionals, but well organised miltants with a 95% political agenda. Stand firm.

 

[Minstadave]

Surely they're not getting paid anything to strike. I just don't see the unrealistic demand as achieving anything. Better that it's removed and at least get some talks taking place.

They did know what the pay was like before choosing to train for it so making references to the early 00's is rather unhelpful.

No one is getting 35% pay rises so to start the bidding at that level is a loaded situation that the other side can't sit down and discuss. It's not negotiating in good faith.

It's not a demand. We've done this several times in this thread. It's an opening position to explain why IA is being pursued. You always start with something you're not really expecting and then meet in the middle.

 

[Minstadave]

I see but £14 is surely the lowest of a range of pay scale bands for that role. So why are Trusts holding junior doctors on the lowest pay band and not advancing them to higher bands? It seems Trusts may be causing a false market by doing so that is obviously at odds with the private sector as one can't just invent a system that thinks it isn't in competition with the private sector.

Trusts have no control over JD pay. They advance through a national pay structure.

 

[Mrwong]

You think at 16 or so when they started to decide on their career and we’re choosing their A levels to get into medicine, a minimum of 8 years ago for the very most junior they were looking at starting salary or really understood the job? Don’t make me laugh.

It’s like the lazy arguments around “if you don’t like it then get another job”. This is a career not your first pay check type of role, but the sad fact is many of them will be looking at either another career or moving abroad. I see it all the time from juniors, and a worrying number have followed through from staff room chats I’ve had over the last few years.

The biggest single stress in my working life is not having enough doctor staff and the impact that has on both my team and patient care, but there simply aren’t enough coming through and the drop out is frightening now.

The government need to step up and genuinely start meaningful talks, as not doing so has real ongoing risks that won’t even take that many years to come to fruition these days, the the ill feeling is so strong.

Clearly 35 is an opening position. Nobody is going to expect the government to say ok 35 it is then. Get down and talk and make something sensible. The government dicking about saying we won’t talk until you stop saying 35 is pointless. Just start some meaningful talks ffs

There are plenty of alternatives they can do.
Be sure that the traditional GP will not exist in 25 years.
Once we perfected scanning monitoring solutions it will be all over for GPs.
If is not the case of if but when.

 

[Mrwong]

The BMA is asking for talks. The government are the ones declining, just doing the same they always do with negotiations. A strike ( with an incredibly high mandate from members I might add) is telling the government we won’t accept you mugging us off with your usual low ball offers. The fact that doctors on this forum are telling you the level of feeling and how people are quitting or moving abroad and yet you still won’t accept that as truth shows that strikes are probably needed to get the message across.

I am neither a junior, nor a member of the BMA. My skin in the game is that I am very worried about us losing a significant amount if doctors over the coming years which we can ill afford

Strikes are the only solution, no matter how it impacts 3rd parties.

 

[CapitalOne]

There are plenty of alternatives they can do.
Be sure that the traditional GP will not exist in 25 years.
Once we perfected scanning monitoring solutions it will be all over for GPs.
If is not the case of if but when.

Mr Wong, in from the left flank with an AI solution….check mate?

 

[Minstadave]

There are plenty of alternatives they can do.
Be sure that the traditional GP will not exist in 25 years.
Once we perfected scanning monitoring solutions it will be all over for GPs.
If is not the case of if but when.

Again this just shows how little you understand about the subject matter. A GP is not simply a human scanner/diagnostic machine.

Honestly I'm at a loss why you continue to post about a subject you know so little about and yet contributed so much incorrect information.

 

[CapitalOne]

Again this just shows how little you understand about the subject matter. A GP is not a human scanner/diagnostic machine.

Hang on, I thought these guys backing the government position came in from a position of knowledge? Isn’t it unfair to their argument to not assume they know everything when they post a definitive position? I both love and hate public forums. Please can we have an internet licence!

 

[n111ck]

Strikes are the only solution, no matter how it impacts 3rd parties.

Strikes don't work any more - they will settle for 10% its just a question of how many days pay they will lose in the meantime.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Again this just shows how little you understand about the subject matter. A GP is not simply a human scanner/diagnostic machine.

Honestly I'm at a loss why you continue to post about a subject you know so little about and yet contributed so much incorrect information.

However, despite not being scanners nor diagnostic machines, a large swathe of the public are finding them very adept metaphorical Will o' the Wisps.

Will-o'-the-wisp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mrwong]

Again this just shows how little you understand about the subject matter. A GP is not simply a human scanner/diagnostic machine.

Honestly I'm at a loss why you continue to post about a subject you know so little about and yet contributed so much incorrect information.

I think you fail to understand what is around the corner.
At the moment tech is assisting doctors, then it will take over in medical imaging assessments, eventually will make its own assessments and provide treatment.
Sorry, but GPs are not for the long term.

A.I does not suffer from visual fatigue, mental fatigue , heavy workload, during its evolutionary expertise.

Verisound AI

GE HealthCare’s innovative AI solutions enable smarter scan guidance, greater workflow productivity, and more informed clinical decision support across our ultrasound portfolio.

captionhealth.com

Brainminer - Machine Learning for Neurology

Brainminer Ltd Machine Learning for Neurology

www.brainminer.co.uk

There are many many companies in this field, this is the tip and a tsunami of companies that are out there evolving.

Would you rather pay for an echo or a hospitalization?​

 

[Minstadave]

Strikes don't work any more - they will settle for 10% its just a question of how many days pay they will lose in the meantime.

These strikes will be effective in short order for a simple reason, it's costing an absolute fortune to pay consultants to cover the JD workload and simple economics will win out. It's over 2k per shift for me to sit here tonight and there are thousands of consultants doing the same day and night across the country, it's not remotely sustainable.


The JDs can pick up locum shifts outside shift times to cover shortfall in income. I'd expect the JDs will have more resilience than the Government.

 

[Minstadave]

I think you fail to understand what is around the corner.
At the moment tech is assisting doctors, then it will take over in medical imaging assessments, eventually will make its own assessments and provide treatment.
Sorry, but GPs are not for the long term.

A.I does not suffer from visual fatigue, mental fatigue , heavy workload, during its evolutionary expertise.

Verisound AI

GE HealthCare’s innovative AI solutions enable smarter scan guidance, greater workflow productivity, and more informed clinical decision support across our ultrasound portfolio.

captionhealth.com

Brainminer - Machine Learning for Neurology

Brainminer Ltd Machine Learning for Neurology

www.brainminer.co.uk

There are many many companies in this field, this is the tip and a tsunami of companies that are out there evolving.

Ah yes you have a much better idea of what it is to be a doctor than I do, silly me, I apologies. I await the AI overlords to punish me for my mistakes.

 

[Minusorange]

Sorry, but GPs are not for the long term.

It will certainly nice to be able to get an appointment at the 24hr GP