Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

[Mrwong]

Ah yes you have a much better idea of what it is to be a doctor than I do, silly me, I apologies. I await the AI overlords to punish me for my mistakes.

While I may not have all the answers, its clear that some jobs are facing significant changes and challenges.
I really like to know is how much is the total package of a public worker, compared to a private worker.
I understand that they each contribute in their own way.
Yet, some private workers do not get any pensions, yet pay towards public workers pensions. How fair is that?

 

[n111ck]

These strikes will be effective in short order for a simple reason, it's costing an absolute fortune to pay consultants to cover the JD workload and simple economics will win out. It's over 2k per shift for me to sit here tonight and there are thousands of consultants doing the same day and night across the country, it's not remotely sustainable.


The JDs can pick up locum shifts outside shift times to cover shortfall in income. I'd expect the JDs will have more resilience than the Government.

The rail strikes cost millions per day and they didn't get what they wanted.

There is a reason these strikes are getting longer and longer and that's because their impact just gets shrugged off by most people - these strikes just target the very vulnerable minority after all. The strikes will go on until something happens that shifts public opinion and then they will settle - probably for around 10%.

 

[StriderX]

The rail strikes cost millions per day and they didn't get what they wanted.

There is a reason these strikes are getting longer and longer and that's because their impact just gets shrugged off by most people - these strikes just target the very vulnerable minority after all. The strikes will go on until something happens that shifts public opinion and then they will settle - probably for around 10%.

And then the service will continue to degrade until it implodes because nobody wants to be treated like slaves.

 

[n111ck]

And then the service will continue to degrade until it implodes because nobody wants to be treated like slaves.

And then the service will continue to degrade until it implodes because nobody wants to pay what it actually costs.

NHS needs a major reboot.

 

[tom_nieto]

This thread still going round in circles I see!

The “they knew what they were getting themselves into” argument is so tiresome. The argument about juniors only being a short while away from the pastures green of consultancy is also deeply flawed on many levels - pay, training, length of time and staff retention to name four off the top of my head.

I will stand to benefit if the NHS collapses and becomes a private entity. My wages will increase and so will the working conditions. What will decrease is the general health and probably the life expectancy of the population.

 

[StriderX]

And then the service will continue to degrade until it implodes because nobody wants to pay what it actually costs.

NHS needs a major reboot.

To what? It's fairly inevitable that we'll just end up like the US with an even more expensive system and all the associated, pointless political drama since you never hear Tory ministers meeting European hospital/pharma it's always Americans.

No thanks.

 

[n111ck]

To what? It's fairly inevitable that we'll just end up like the US with an even more expensive system and all the associated, pointless political drama since you never hear Tory ministers meeting European hospital/pharma it's always Americans.

No thanks.

What do you suggest? Every time the govt chucks money at the NHS it just gets swallowed up with no improvement.

The public want to get unhealthier to place greater demands on the service all whilst moaning about tax increases.

The current situation is unsustainable and giving JD's a 35% pay rise will solve nothing.

 

[Semple]

Mr Wong, in from the left flank with an AI solution….check mate?

He was arguing the other week that doctors are more likely to be replaced by AI/Automation than a bricklayer.

 

[Semple]

The rail strikes cost millions per day and they didn't get what they wanted.

There is a reason these strikes are getting longer and longer and that's because their impact just gets shrugged off by most people - these strikes just target the very vulnerable minority after all. The strikes will go on until something happens that shifts public opinion and then they will settle - probably for around 10%.

There's a massive difference though, the rail strikes resulted in them shutting down the network / stopping 99% of services.

Sure you could do the same in the NHS, close down A&E etc, but you will end up killing people. Instead even more expensive doctors have to step in to fill the gap.

 

[n111ck]

There's a massive difference though, the rail strikes resulted in them shutting down the network / stopping 99% of services.

Sure you could do the same in the NHS, close down A&E etc, but you will end up killing people. Instead even more expensive doctors have to step in to fill the gap.

There's no difference - strikes reduce services and create cost / loss - the rail strikes apparently cost over £1bn and didn't work so no reason to believe these strikes will.

 

[Semple]

What do you suggest? Every time the govt chucks money at the NHS it just gets swallowed up with no improvement.

The public want to get unhealthier to place greater demands on the service all whilst moaning about tax increases.

The current situation is unsustainable and giving JD's a 35% pay rise will solve nothing.

The current situation is unsustainable, absolutely right. The public as a whole need to either become more healthier, less of a burden on the NHS. Or pay more through taxation for the service. There's no middle ground.

 

[Doobedoo]

There's no difference - strikes reduce services and create cost / loss - the rail strikes apparently cost over £1bn and didn't work so no reason to believe these strikes will.

£1bn+ is a lot of pay rises probably better just to do a deal in the first place instead of using the media to create division within the public.

 

[n111ck]

£1bn+ is a lot of pay rises probably better just to do a deal in the first place instead of using the media to create division within the public.

Yes that would send a good message to the unions.. seriously..

 

[Pho]

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/tackling-fraud-and-corruption-against-government-summary.pdf

£33.2bn to £58.8bn - the Public Sector Fraud Authority’s (PSFA’s) estimate of the extent of fraud and error across all of government in 2020-21. This is out of £1,106.1 billion of expenditure and £608.8 billion of tax income


But no, it's the junior doctors wanting an extra ~£5 an hour that's the problem.

 

[thenewoc]

This thread still going round in circles I see!

The “they knew what they were getting themselves into” argument is so tiresome. The argument about juniors only being a short while away from the pastures green of consultancy is also deeply flawed on many levels - pay, training, length of time and staff retention to name four off the top of my head.

I will stand to benefit if the NHS collapses and becomes a private entity. My wages will increase and so will the working conditions. What will decrease is the general health and probably the life expectancy of the population.

No, you'll most likely be forced to manage with less. You might get more nurses with extra responsibilities but fewer doctors to oversea those nurses. That's how it works in the private sector, efficiency and costs are tightly managed and people have to be more accountable for costs.

 

[thenewoc]

Trusts have no control over JD pay. They advance through a national pay structure.

Surely they can promote to higher bands though. I accept they don't choose the band rates.

 

[n111ck]

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/tackling-fraud-and-corruption-against-government-summary.pdf

£33.2bn to £58.8bn - the Public Sector Fraud Authority’s (PSFA’s) estimate of the extent of fraud and error across all of government in 2020-21. This is out of £1,106.1 billion of expenditure and £608.8 billion of tax income


But no, it's the junior doctors wanting an extra ~£5 an hour that's the problem.

Thats two completely different things and lets not forget every time the government tries to, for example, crack down on benefit fraud its slammed as 'unfair and cruel' in the lefty media.

Where anything is provided 'free' by the government it will always be abused and subject to fraud - covid has proven that quite clearly. The cost of preventing fraud has to be balanced against the cost of the actual fraud unfortunately.

 

[thenewoc]

These strikes will be effective in short order for a simple reason, it's costing an absolute fortune to pay consultants to cover the JD workload and simple economics will win out. It's over 2k per shift for me to sit here tonight and there are thousands of consultants doing the same day and night across the country, it's not remotely sustainable.


The JDs can pick up locum shifts outside shift times to cover shortfall in income. I'd expect the JDs will have more resilience than the Government.

2k per shift is also part of the problem don't you think?

 

[n111ck]

No, you'll most likely be forced to manage with less. You might get more nurses with extra responsibilities but fewer doctors to oversea those nurses. That's how it works in the private sector, efficiency and costs are tightly managed and people have to be more accountable for costs.

What are the BMA offering in terms of efficiencies to help fund the 35%? The rail unions had to accept some after all..

 

[Doobedoo]

Yes that would send a good message to the unions.. seriously..

But it’s costing a shed load of money that could be used to increase the wage of valuable members of society.