"Just stop oil"

b0rn2sk8 said:
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Who said anything about replacing your cars? There is no outright ICE ban, only a ban on new ICE vehicles. For a new car the price differential is around £5000 over an equivalent new ICE model, you'd make that difference up in fuel over the first few years of ownership, before accounting for really low depreciation currently.
[..]
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If you can afford to be an early adopter, probably. For a few more years, anyway.

The great majority of ICE fuel cost in the UK is tax. The only reason EVs are currently much cheaper to power than ICEVs is because EVs get an absolutely huge tax break for every metre they travel. That's only sustainable while EVs are a very small minority of vehicles. Once that stops being the case, that tax will be levied in some form. Hopefully on EV use, but I suspect it will remain politically expedient to pretend EVs are much cheaper to run and so the tax burden will be imposed somewhere else, including on people who don't use vehicles much or at all, forcing them to subsidise people who do.
 
I don’t deny there are unequal tax incentives but at the end of the day ICE drivers are not subsidising EV drivers.

Taxes applied to fuel is a ‘because we can and you have no choice’ consumption tax to try and encourage you to use less (environment etc.).

Taxes applied to ICE vehicles do not go into building or maintaining roads. It’s just goes into the big magic money tree in the treasury.

The vast majority of roads in the country are maintained by local councils, funded by council tax. It’s only the major trunk roads and motorways that are maintained by central government spending. So your point about non-road users paying for the roads already exists.

Even if you don’t own a car, you also still benefit, the goods you buy all arrive by road etc etc.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
I don’t deny there are unequal tax incentives but at the end of the day ICE drivers are not subsidising EV drivers.

Taxes applied to fuel is a ‘because we can and you have no choice’ consumption tax to try and encourage you to use less (environment etc.).

Taxes applied to ICE vehicles do not go into building or maintaining roads. It’s just goes into the big magic money tree in the treasury.

The vast majority of roads in the country are maintained by local councils, funded by council tax. It’s only the major trunk roads and motorways that are maintained by central government spending. So your point about non-road users paying for the roads already exists.

Even if you don’t own a car, you also still benefit, the goods you buy all arrive by road etc etc.
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That's a nice rebuttal of things I never said.

Do you think that the government will just ignore the loss of tax revenue from ICEVs? It's about £50 billion per year now. About 2% of the entire national income. I think it's wildly implausible to argue that the government will simply ignore the loss of that much tax.
 
Angilion said:
That's a nice rebuttal of things I never said.

Do you think that the government will just ignore the loss of tax revenue from ICEVs? It's about £50 billion per year now. About 2% of the entire national income. I think it's wildly implausible to argue that the government will simply ignore the loss of that much tax.
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Nope, they love consumption taxes.

I expect they’ll just chuck it all onto VED for all vehicles on a sliding scale based on value and fuel consumption.

Easiest, quickest and cheapest way of raising the cash.

Fuel duty will probably stay and the VED would be an addition to continue to encourage zero emission take up.

Probably more ANPR tolls too
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Nope, they love consumption taxes.

I expect they’ll just chuck it all onto VED for all vehicles on a sliding scale based on value and fuel consumption.

Easiest, quickest and cheapest way of raising the cash.

Fuel duty will probably stay and the VED would be an addition to continue to encourage zero emission take up.

Probably more ANPR tolls too
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I reckon there will be an actual "road tax" when evs take over. As stated it's a lot of money they'd be missing out on. Maybe they'll base it on miles driven rather than on the fuel (which I think would be hard if not impossible to separate for an ev).
 
theone8181 said:
I reckon there will be an actual "road tax" when evs take over. As stated it's a lot of money they'd be missing out on. Maybe they'll base it on miles driven rather than on the fuel (which I think would be hard if not impossible to separate for an ev).
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I was going to make the same point. There does need to be a way to tax road usage to replace the proxy we currently have which is is taxing petrol and diesel. Its generally accepted that the more miles you do, the more tax you should pay - so a simple flat charge like we currently have with VED won't cut it. Other characteristics needed are:

- Needs to be cheap to collect the tax
- Needs to be very hard for people to dodge it

So it comes down to how do you measure the mileage:

- Checked via the odometer ? Is "clocking" still a thing with modern cars ?
- ANPR cameras / tracking. Do we want a police state where we're tracked and it wouldn't be cheap to set up either. Same privacy issue for any kind of black box or telemetry on the cars itself.
- Something akin to taxing fuel, so a higher electric tariff for charging cars up than your normal domestic use.
- Something else I've not thought of ....

its a tough one. For those currently driving an EV, enjoy your lower cost mileage while you can :D
 
peterwalkley said:
I was going to make the same point. There does need to be a way to tax road usage to replace the proxy we currently have which is is taxing petrol and diesel. Its generally accepted that the more miles you do, the more tax you should pay - so a simple flat charge like we currently have with VED won't cut it. Other characteristics needed are:

- Needs to be cheap to collect the tax
- Needs to be very hard for people to dodge it

So it comes down to how do you measure the mileage:

- Checked via the odometer ? Is "clocking" still a thing with modern cars ?
- ANPR cameras / tracking. Do we want a police state where we're tracked and it wouldn't be cheap to set up either. Same privacy issue for any kind of black box or telemetry on the cars itself.
- Something akin to taxing fuel, so a higher electric tariff for charging cars up than your normal domestic use.
- Something else I've not thought of ....

its a tough one. For those currently driving an EV, enjoy your lower cost mileage while you can :D
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I know lots of people think roads pricing will be the next big thing but I just can’t see a way of implementing it that doesn’t cost £lol.

For every £ you spend, implementing, maintaining and collecting the money, the less you actually raise from the tax.

To address your specific points:

Yes clocking (aka ‘milage correction’) is absolutely still a thing and not difficult to do on modern cars assuming the expectation is the MOT tester is just reading the milage output from the screen and reporting it via the MOT system.

ANPR tricking is inaccurate and incredibly expensive to cover tens of thousand of miles of roads across the country.

It’s impossible to differentiate between domestic and EV every use though a domestic supply. You can charge a car from a 3 pin socket at the end of the day, bypassing any smart chargers or extra meters. Also consider those that have solar etc. and don’t actually take much energy from the grid.

You didn’t mention ‘black boxes’ but again they are easy to defeat and expensive to implement.

The short answer is there are no good options to tax consumption that doesn’t cost a lot (fuel duty costs next to nothing to administer and collect), which are not flat rate and therefore ‘unfair’.

That’s why I’d say ANPR tolls on motorways and trunk roads, combined with a much larger VED will likely be the way forward. Even that will cause perverse behaviour and take people off motorways and onto minor local roads to avoid tolls which is a bad thing.
 
I see these imbeciles are blocking off the petrol pumps at the service stations around the M25 today.

I don't know who they think this is going to affect, nobody fills up at motorway service stations, the prices are far too inflated.
 
Feek said:
I see these imbeciles are blocking off the petrol pumps at the service stations around the M25 today.

I don't know who they think this is going to affect, nobody fills up at motorway service stations, the prices are far too inflated.
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Indeed.

Unless you have a company vehicle and a fuel card. On the few occasions where I’ve been running low on fuel on a motorway, I’ve always left at the next junction and found a supermarket to fill up.
 
Feek said:
I see these imbeciles are blocking off the petrol pumps at the service stations around the M25 today.

I don't know who they think this is going to affect, nobody fills up at motorway service stations, the prices are far too inflated.
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From what i have seen they were actively smashing and damaging the pumps then gluing themselves to the forecourt.
 
ZXSpectrum said:

MSN

www.msn.com

According to that article 3 have been arrested on suspicion of criminal damage. Whether they get charged, convicted or banged up for it is another thing.
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Shell and BP should have taken one for the team and locked the gates and left them glued there.

Seems like they forgot that resources and energy will be consumed to repair the damages they've done. :|
 
There's a new slogan thingie now; "End UK private jets" and apparently a memorial to Captain Tom is a worthy target for them????

ruEyZKp.jpg

www.dailymail.co.uk

Shame of the father of eco zealot, 21, in Captain Tom memorial stunt

The father of an eco warrior who prompted fury pouring human excrement over a Captain Sir Tom Moore memorial in Derbyshire said he was 'deeply ashamed' over her 'desecrating his memory'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder if it would be effective as a punishment if part of their community service was to directly work on/repair the very damage they caused + whatever additional hours they're sentenced too... assuming they even get that as a punishment as opposed to a caution or small fine etc..
 
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