Lifting for gainzzz

[spoffle]

That's fine, my only agenda here is safety and, if we ever get there, helping with technical problems and strength deficits. At the moment, a 300kg squat is a very long way away.

I can imagine you're going to get all resentful again, but to be blunt, it doesn't come across like that.

A friend of mine is a similar weight and is actually strong within his weight class, and not even a guy of his size can lift with those kinds of dysfunctions (he also benches over 200kg and warms up with the bar...). You can not get away with form like that forever.

Whay, sly digs! You do realise I haven't said it's wrong to warm up with the bar, don't you?

*sigh*

What are you even talking about? You're not even discussing lifting any more, and seem bizarrely interested in winning internet arguments of your own creation.

Don't play dumb, you know full well what I'm talking about, and I wasn't the one that instigated that. It's getting tiresome the amount of scaremongering that's going on here, the sly comments about how I'm most definitely going to hurt myself, then I see you giving people props for rough lifts, and then you wonder why I think you have some sort of agenda?

Why were you arguing with Delvis? Apart from your pointless conjecture, what knowledge of proper warm up procedure do you imagine you have? People who are considerably stronger than you warm up with the bar, because it's good practice. If that confuses you, please ask for an explanation rather than using your extremely limited knowledge and experience to argue against a very reasonable point.

As above, you do know why, you're just playing dumb. I am not saying it's wrong to warm up with the bar at all and you know that.

Additionally, some people who are considerably stronger also don't warm up with the bar. Less of the straw man arguments, yeah? Because it's becoming seriously tiresome that you and a few others are regularly selectively quoting what I'm saying, and then twisting it to suit the argument they want to have.

I never said his point was unreasonable, you know this, you also know that my main issue was the notion that I WILL damage my shoulders (Goodbye, shoulders). I understand that Delvis has trashed his shoulders a while back, I've seen comments about it, so I understand where he is coming from- what I disagree with is the seeming notion that "It's happened to me, it WILL happen to you".

You're the one making absolute statements, I'm not. I've said it's my personal preference, as lighter weights for warm ups do nothing for me. It's personal preference, I am not telling other people that is how they must do it, amusingly you are doing this, yet I'm the one getting grief for it. Lawdy lawd.

Oh and again, I know you saw my comments about pressups, why haven't you had a moan about that? Probably because you understand my point in relation to them, and most people doing pressups will have much more than the equivalent load of 20KG on their shoulders when doing it.

To simplify my point, and avoid "baiting" you into more ridiculous and time wasting arguments, your form is terrible. You have some very real movement issues that would be in your best interests to address. If you want help with these issue, I suggest you find a good coach or I will be happy to help. If not, or you are going to ask me to convince you that these issues exist, then good luck to you.

I love the way my form keeps getting worse each time I disagree with someone else, it's odd how that works isn't it?

I don't think my form is perfect (far from it) but the way you're acting differently towards me is just confusing, I'm not sure why you're doing that. Does the way you see things change depending on how malleable someone is?

 

[RoboCod]

Log delivers. Keep up the quality entertainment.

Thanks.

 

[spoffle]

I'm trying to keep it civil, but the constant straw man arguments and misrepresentations are just getting tiresome, that, and the notion that I can't question something or disagree without being accused of being some sort of petulant child, or how my form is getting worse each time I contend a straw man argument, it's like I've been warped to pretend land.

 

[Delvis]

Regarding press ups, you shouldnt just go in to them straight away, as you say its a heavy load. They should still be adequately warmed up.

The point of warming up isnt to make it feel like your being worked out, you're warming up everything, getting the movement pattern ingrained more, what if you did 100kg and something went wrong? Your a/c joint had a fit? Your stabalisers didnt work correctly? That is why I brought it to your attention.

 

[spoffle]

That's great, and I appreciate it, I'm just pointing out that it's a matter of preference, and that weight and the load bearing is different with different people.

I know the point of warming up isn't to feel like you're being worked out, that's been my whole point, 100KG doesn't feel like I'm being worked out. It genuinely feels very light.

I didn't take issue with that, as I've said a few times, it was the insistence that my shoulders will definitely explode because of it, and I then get moaned at for supposedly being absolutist.

 

[Delvis]

I'm not saying 100kg doesnt feel heavy, 150kg might not feel heavy, going in to a +100kg lift cold won't do anyone any good.

 

[LiE]

If 100kg felt genuinely light as you say, I'd expect you're working sets to be much more than they are. For example, at 83kg I can bench press 165, paused, but I still don't consider 100kg 'very light' despite being able to rep it till the cows come home. I start with the bar, and work up, allowing my muscles to get warm, the blood to flow and to avoid putting load on cold muscles. Your chest may be strong, but those rotator cuff muscles will wear over time and eventually snap.

 

[spoffle]

If 100kg felt genuinely light as you say, I'd expect you're working sets to be much more than they are. For example, at 83kg I can bench press 165, paused, but I still don't consider 100kg 'very light' despite being able to rep it till the cows come home. I start with the bar, and work up, allowing my muscles to get warm, the blood to flow and to avoid putting load on cold muscles. Your chest may be strong, but those rotator cuff muscles will wear over time and eventually snap.

You have been lifting for a long time though, no? I haven't really, and I know that development influences the upper end of strength, and nervous system ability that and I'm still working on getting into a grove of bench pressing.

I do consider 100KG very light, genuinely, I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.

I'm not telling people not to warm up with the bar, though it seems like people think I am. I'm just saying that my preference is doing it this way, I have tried warming up with lighter weights and I don't actually start warming up until I hit 100, but it often means I've burnt energy.

 

[MoNkeE]

Jesus Hurly, you really are incredible even your training partner who was originally brought in to validate your argument seems to be finding a lot of common ground with Icecold!?

 

[spoffle]

wow, people will see whatever they want to see, won't they?

Also, Hurley? Really? You're actually going down that path?

 

[Syla5]

EDITED: Oh, I didn't read that you said left there, the door you see there is part of a row of wardrobes, I suppose I could crawl into the wardrobe to get a side shot, but I'd have to balance my dignity against getting a good video of Spoffle's depth.

Yes do this . Get spoffle file to film you getting in there first as well please

Serge start your own log. It would be awesome to see how you progress through smolov etc.

Spoffle, I am sorry to say but I have read most of what has been posted, and although you start out talking about lifting its slowly turning in to you trying to pick apart everyone else's posts, and selectively not quoting any of the sound advise your getting. You have been given some criticism and is seems like your more interested in trying to score points back on those people. To be fair I am surprised Icecold is still trying to offer help, especially when it's being given for free and you as the recipient are just trying to shoot down what he's posting. Although his posting style may come across blunt, his level of advise is something that many people pay good money for and just because he's typing to you over the interwebz doesn't down grade his level of knowledge, yet you seem content to try and counter his posts, rather then taking stuff on board and eating some humble pie (no pun intended before you take offence).
Your happy to admit that your level of lifting knowledge is limited and novice at best, so why try to counter what is sound advice?

The whole warming up with 100kg is laughable. The weight might seem "very light" to you but as others have said that is 100% not the point. Your joints, ligaments, and smaller muscles will still be under higher levels of stress then unloaded, and getting them going with a few sets of the bar, 40 reps or so then jumping to 60 and smashing out a couple of sets of 10-20 reps is going to be nothing to you, but the unseen benefits will be 10 times better then the small mount of energy you will save by skipping that 5 mins of prep work.

Anyway I hope that you will take some of the advice from here, as your a strong chap and if you say injury free you will get a lot stronger, and that would be nice to see.

 

[Freefaller]

Spoffle you do seem to be purposely defensive/abrasive to people here - I don't know why when people are just trying to help. I'm not speaking to you as a well versed gym rat, but as a person reading this thread (not a moderator - as I haven't needed to put this hat on), and you do seem to be a little highly strung for whatever reason.

Can I suggest you either:

a) thank everybody for their help and either:

1) take on their advice
2) humour them and not take on their advice
3) carry on as you are,​

b) don't keep picking apart posts that are intended to help
c) get back to logging your work outs and interact with people here in a collaborative way
d) keep joining into the gym rat community with an open mind.

Some food for thought perhaps.

 

[icecold]

What I've found is that I seem to oscillate between weak legs and a weak lower back, there's times where I can feel myself drive up with my legs easily (like from the bottom in that video) and times where I de-rack a working weight and feel surprised at how light it feels on my back. I see what you mean with regards to me tipping forward out of the hole.

I'm currently doing the horrible smolov squat routine for a second time at the moment which will hopefully leave me at close to the 200kg mark so I'll start a training log after I've done that in two weeks. I'll try and get some good videos of me ramping up from working weight to a 1RM so you can see when and where my form deteriorates as load is added if you wouldn't mind looking at them.

Also, interestingly, I only ever get posterior chain fatigue from squatting, literally no quad fatigue at all, do you think this has an impact on my form?

You're a brave man to do smolov! Especially having done it once so you know how it feels

Post here for feedback on technique: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18398834

Suggesting that you have a weak lower back in that situation is like benching with the bar at your belly button and suggesting that the limiting factor is weak shoulders.

You're putting your back into positions where it has to do far more work than it should. The solution is improve your positioning, and get strong enough in those positions so as not to fall out of them.

 

[icecold]

Spoffle, as I said, I'm not interested in arguing with you. You haven't asked about the reasons for warming up from just the bar, so I have to assume you aren't interested. Similarly with the other points mentioned.

I sincerely hope you continue to pursue lifting and learn how to address your various deficits.

 

[spoffle]

Yes do this . Get spoffle file to film you getting in there first as well please

Spoffle file? What's that?

Spoffle, I am sorry to say but I have read most of what has been posted, and although you start out talking about lifting its slowly turning in to you trying to pick apart everyone else's posts, and selectively not quoting any of the sound advise your getting.

I'm not selectively quoting anyone, the reason I'm not picking apart the good advice is because it's good advice, I would have thought it was obvious. I'm also not picking apart everyone's posts. As I said, I'm finding it amusing that my form seems to be getting worse each time I post, can you blame me for responding in the way I am when that's happening?

You have been given some criticism and is seems like your more interested in trying to score points back on those people. To be fair I am surprised Icecold is still trying to offer help, especially when it's being given for free and you as the recipient are just trying to shoot down what he's posting.

I'm not trying to score any points, I am not dismissing any advice either, what I am dismissing is claims people are making that I know not to be true. Like BennyC's claims that I wouldn't be able to do a paused squat. It's frustrating that people are making those sort of claims when I know it's baseless, it comes across as picking for the sake of it.

In addition to that, Icecold seems to think I've asked for his advice, and I am now dismissing information I asked for. I just started by questioning what he was saying to me to gain a better understanding, something with which he took issue.

Although his posting style may come across blunt, his level of advise is something that many people pay good money for and just because he's typing to you over the interwebz doesn't down grade his level of knowledge, yet you seem content to try and counter his posts, rather then taking stuff on board and eating some humble pie (no pun intended before you take offence).

I'm not complaining about him being blunt, I'm as blunt as they come, that's not the issue. Have you honestly read my posts, or have you skimmed them? I am not dismissing advice, I have been querying it, and dismissing claims that just aren't true.

Your happy to admit that your level of lifting knowledge is limited and novice at best, so why try to counter what is sound advice?

I'm not, which is why I don't think everyone is actually reading my posts.

The whole warming up with 100kg is laughable. The weight might seem "very light" to you but as others have said that is 100% not the point. Your joints, ligaments, and smaller muscles will still be under higher levels of stress then unloaded, and getting them going with a few sets of the bar, 40 reps or so then jumping to 60 and smashing out a couple of sets of 10-20 reps is going to be nothing to you, but the unseen benefits will be 10 times better then the small mount of energy you will save by skipping that 5 mins of prep work.

Preference and all that, I've noticed Freefaller said he does the same a little while back as well.

In addition to that, yes I am a beginner, it doesn't mean I don't read around though, and it's not common for me to come across somewhere that says I should warm up with the bar, but rather it's a preference with what you warm up with.

Anyway I hope that you will take some of the advice from here, as your a strong chap and if you say injury free you will get a lot stronger, and that would be nice to see.

Please note that I haven't actually taken issue with anything you've said, what you've said is completely constructive. What I have taken issue with is the way some are basically almost laughing and then going "bye bye to xxxx". It is highly condescending.

Spoffle you do seem to be purposely defensive/abrasive to people here - I don't know why when people are just trying to help. I'm not speaking to you as a well versed gym rat, but as a person reading this thread (not a moderator - as I haven't needed to put this hat on), and you do seem to be a little highly strung for whatever reason.

I don't think everyone is trying to help, surely you get the points I've actually made, about why I've challenged things. I hate to bring it up again like a broken record but it seems like people are picking for the sake of it, but I still don't understand where the notion of "you can't do pause squats" has come from. I didn't like the way such things were being said with such authority, and the suggestion that I am lying when I have said it's not the case. That, and the way my form has gotten worse each time I've countered something, surely you can see that?

Can I suggest you either:

a) thank everybody for their help and either:

1) take on their advice
2) humour them and not take on their advice
3) carry on as you are,​

b) don't keep picking apart posts that are intended to help
c) get back to logging your work outs and interact with people here in a collaborative way
d) keep joining into the gym rat community with an open mind.

Some food for thought perhaps.

Have you honestly read everything that's been posted? I think you might have just skimmed my posts and think that I'm just arguing for the sake of it.

I've not once suggested that I don't need to work on anything, I've already said I have been stretching my chest and shoulders, I have said that I want to work on my flexibility, but this seems to have all been ignored in favour of picking at stuff again.

 

[Freefaller]

No I've read everything, that goes with the badge. There you go being aggressive again - I suggest you maybe reflect and think about how you come across on the forums.

 

[spoffle]

Spoffle, as I said, I'm not interested in arguing with you. You haven't asked about the reasons for warming up from just the bar, so I have to assume you aren't interested. Similarly with the other points mentioned.

I understand why people like to warm up with the bar, I'm not contesting it, or saying it's wrong to do. Whereas I have people telling me I need to do it the way they're telling me, or I'll hurt myself.

I'm saying it's a personal preference

I sincerely hope you continue to pursue lifting and learn how to address your various deficits.

I sincerely believe this sort of situation would have come up had this sort of conversation been had in person due to the multitude of issues that come with text based communication. Too many assumptions are being made on what I'm saying and doing. I like to be thorough when I talk about subjects, especially when it's in relation to learning things.

You've also taken things I've said to BennyC as if I'm saying them to you, however the issue I've had is that it *seems* like you are giving props to others' lifts that are with worse form, which is what I tried to query, as I don't really get why you'd do that.

 

[spoffle]

No I've read everything, that goes with the badge. There you go being aggressive again - I suggest you maybe reflect and think about how you come across on the forums.

I'm not being aggressive, I was genuinely asking you a question, as it seems like my posts haven't been read properly. As I said, too many assumptions. It's not aggressive to question you, and it's certainly not intended to be aggressive, I am blunt and will say what I'm thinking, don't take it the wrong way as if I'm trying to start something.

 

[Freefaller]

Perhaps it is the way you come across, but the common denominator is the fact that everyone feels the same way about your posts - gotta be a little bit of a clue surely

Anyway - let's leave it at that, and good luck with your training.

 

[spoffle]

Perhaps it is the way you come across, but the common denominator is the fact that everyone feels the same way about your posts - gotta be a little bit of a clue surely

I understand that, I'm just assuring you that despite how I come across, I'm not actually being aggressive. As I said before, written communication and all that, if this was taking place in person you'd have a different impression.

Anyway - let's leave it at that, and good luck with your training.

I was going to do a session tonight, but I'm not sure, I'm way too tired so I might wait until tomorrow when I go over to Serge's (who is trying to bully me in to doing the Smolov routine with him).