London pollution & ULEZ

[b0rn2sk8]

Happy to be corrected, but aren't Toyota and others switching to developing hydrogen ICEs? Which are not EVs. And emit NOx.

Which will be banned in passenger cars because it’s not zero emission at the tail pipe.

It also still doesn’t change that the hydrogen is vastly more expensive than diesel, petrol and electricity and always will be.

Where that might make sense is some road building equipment which needs to operate for a 10 hour shift in the middle of nowhere.

 

[FoxEye]

Which will be banned in passenger cars because it’s not zero emission at the tail pipe.

It also still doesn’t change that the hydrogen is vastly more expensive than diesel, petrol and electricity and always will be.

Where that might make sense is some road building equipment which needs to operate for a 10 hour shift in the middle of nowhere.

The impression I got (as I said, cursory reading) was that hydrogen power isn't really being pushed enthusiastically by anyone, as far as I can tell. Fuel cells even less so.

Even if it is developed, it seems to be decades away. And might very well never happen (outside of hydrogen ICE in heavy off-road equipment).

Shell recently closed a handful of hydrogen filling stations. Some say it was a trial that reached its natural end, some say they encountered less demand than expected, and it wasn't worth their while.

 

[jpaul]

... Just as the smart EU money moved into mandated hydrogen refilling stations on the principal routes every 200km and electric think it was 50km,
even though it's inefficient to convert electricity to hydrogen, if you have no other storage methods(/want to be warm in winter) to wit shell electrolysis stations for windfarms in Netherlands.
Just Stop Oil will soon become just stop hydrogen - yes - that's a genuinely upcoming and unexploited resource.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

... Just as the smart EU money moved into mandated hydrogen refilling stations on the principal routes every 200km and electric think it was 50km,
even though it's inefficient to convert electricity to hydrogen, if you have no other storage methods(/want to be warm in winter) to wit shell electrolysis stations for windfarms in Netherlands.
Just Stop Oil will soon become just stop hydrogen - yes - that's a genuinely upcoming and unexploited resource.

But it’s very unlikely be be used for ground transport because the economics of it just don’t work compared to EVs, particularly in Europe. When I say EVs, I mean all ground transport vehicles, including HGVs.

I don’t think anyone sensible is ruling out hydrogen being a short of the future energy mix but burning it as a fuel in a car makes no sense, particularly when it emits loads of nox, the thing we are trying to get rid of in ULEZ zones. It costs more than petrol and diesel now and it doesn’t have any tax on it. Add on the tax and you’ll be in for a shock. Even with these high electricity prices, BEVs cost 1/3 to 1/2 to run than an ICE vehicle.

There are so many better uses for green hydrogen, firstly, decarbonising brown hydrogen which makes up a huge existing market would be a good start and we are further away from achieving that as we are decarbonising ground transport with BEVs.

 

[SPG]

The economics don't add up currently due to the generation of Hydrogen at some point its going to tip, the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

 

[adam cool dude]

But it’s very unlikely be be used for ground transport because the economics of it just don’t work compared to EVs, particularly in Europe. When I say EVs, I mean all ground transport vehicles, including HGVs.

I don’t think anyone sensible is ruling out hydrogen being a short of the future energy mix but burning it as a fuel in a car makes no sense, particularly when it emits loads of nox, the thing we are trying to get rid of in ULEZ zones. It costs more than petrol and diesel now and it doesn’t have any tax on it. Add on the tax and you’ll be in for a shock. Even with these high electricity prices, BEVs cost 1/3 to 1/2 to run than an ICE vehicle.

There are so many better uses for green hydrogen, firstly, decarbonising brown hydrogen which makes up a huge existing market would be a good start and we are further away from achieving that as we are decarbonising ground transport with BEVs.

HGV's will never be electric. It is all a fad and completely impossible with reality.

You have several major issues. HGV's are weight based on the load they can carry and more weight = less money coming in. The new Volvo FH EV HGV is 3.6 tonnes heavier than its ICE equivalent. That is 3.6 tonnes of goods less it can carry. That can quite easily be 4-6 pallets worth of product so for every EV lorry you would need an extra one on the roads compared to 4 ICE lorries to have the same load with standard sized pallets. Then you need to work out if running a fleet of 4 ICE lorries is cleaner than a fleet of 5 EV lorries as you will have the carbon footprint of having to produce an extra EV lorry to offset its reduced carrying potential.

Add to that you have a driver shortage crisis to worry about so that is a problem in itself needing more EV HGV's on the road.

Lastly massive companies run their trucks 24/7. Just to give you a bit of context. I did a 9 hour drive in a day last week. From my base in Lincolnshire all the way up to Runcorn, down to Nuneaton for a collection, across to Newark to deliver that collection, pick up a collection from the same place and bring it back to depot. Fill up with fuel at the depot (fridge trailers run on diesel too that is another problem) and then most likely within the hour that truck has been handed over to night shift for them to commence their duty. In that day I did 353 miles and didn't stop in a services for a break. All in laybys etc plus farms or RDC's will not be giving up their electricity to let us charge even if I had the time to hook up etc.

Yes that was a extreme day and it isn't normally like that but just to give you a perspective.

In my opinion Hydrogen is the only solution for HGV's that seems logical. JCB also seem to agree.

 

[loftie]

The economics don't add up currently due to the generation of Hydrogen at some point its going to tip, the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

That's assuming they stay only lithium, there are chinese companies looking at sodium batteries.

 

[delta0]

The economics don't add up currently due to the generation of Hydrogen at some point its going to tip, the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

I don’t see this happening. In fact I see the sudden moves by countries like Chile to take away Chinese control of the lithium industry as a positive. It’s also under the realisation that many more alternative materials will be used for batteries in future. I think we have about 15 years max for lithium domination and Chile know that so need to make as much as they can while they still can.

 

[Mr Jack]

... the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

The difference between Lithium and oil is that there isn't an alternative to oil whereas there are many alternatives to Lithium and a rise in the price of Lithium will rapidly drive development of alternative technologies.

 

[jigger]

That's assuming they stay only lithium, there are chinese companies looking at sodium batteries.

The UK just allowed sold our grant backed sodium battery firm to an Indian firm. Sodium isn’t a great option for EV’s.

 

[D.P.]

The economics don't add up currently due to the generation of Hydrogen at some point its going to tip, the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

there are alternatives to lithium, and indeed there are many more sources of lithium and the batteries can be recycled. These avenues haven't been taken because currently it is cheaper just to build nez Li-ion batteries from raw imported Chilean lithium. But with the rise in EV, these are changing. Vanadium flow batteries are picking up pace for BESS, the US has opened up several new lithium mines and there are at least 4-5 small enterprises successfully recycling lithium

 

[jpaul]

I don’t think anyone sensible is ruling out hydrogen being a short of the future energy mix but burning it as a fuel in a car makes no sense, particularly when it emits loads of nox, the thing we are trying to get rid of in ULEZ zones. It costs more than petrol and diesel now and it doesn’t have any tax on it. Add on the tax and you’ll be in for a shock. Even with these high electricity prices, BEVs cost 1/3 to 1/2 to run than an ICE vehicle.

sure you didn't mean that ... but of course I am referring to fuel cells , not burning - toyota mirai, bmw prototype etc.

european article

Main deployment targets for 2025 and 2030
The regulation provides for the following specific deployment targets:

• From 2025 onwards, fast recharging stations of at least 150kW for cars and vans need to be installed every 60km along the EU’s TEN-T network
• Recharging stations for heavy-duty vehicles with a minimum output of 350kW need to be deployed every 60km along the TEN-T core network, and every 100 km on the larger TEN-T comprehensive network from 2025 onwards, with complete network coverage by 2030
• Hydrogen refuelling stations serving both cars and lorries must be deployed from 2030 onwards in all urban nodes and every 200km along the TEN-T core network

​

 

[loftie]

The UK just allowed sold our grant backed sodium battery firm to an Indian firm. Sodium isn’t a great option for EV’s.

Faradion (assuming it's them you're talking about) claimed an energy density in excess of 190wh/kg, CATL which are making some Tesla LFP batteries are saying they're getting 210wh/kg with their M3P batteries. Of course if you're referring to some other reason sodium batteries aren't ideal for EVs then fire away.

As for the UK allowing something to be sold, the UK buying or selling something shouldn't be a sign if something is good or bad. With the current government, assuming they were involved, I'd be looking to see who has links to any of the companies involved tbh.

 

[jigger]

Faradion (assuming it's them you're talking about) claimed an energy density in excess of 190wh/kg, CATL which are making some Tesla LFP batteries are saying they're getting 210wh/kg with their M3P batteries. Of course if you're referring to some other reason sodium batteries aren't ideal for EVs then fire away.

As for the UK allowing something to be sold, the UK buying or selling something shouldn't be a sign if something is good or bad. With the current government, assuming they were involved, I'd be looking to see who has links to any of the companies involved tbh.

Yeah. LFP isn’t that great for EV’s.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The problem with hydrogen outside very large vehicles is the size of the tank required.
Plus the fact your literally sitting on a bomb. They may have to vent fuel if the temps rise as well. (depends on the storage compression)
Its far less of an issue if your going fuel cell, but my suspicion is most people wanting Hydrogen are thinking it will be an ICE equivalent.
Well I hope they have no aspirations in regards range or carrying any luggage.

Engineering explained has plenty of stuff on it, but the last one on the V8 also goes into a good summary again.

 

[SPG]

So what you are saying is the exactly the same as hydrogen... nothing in place apart from a few startups.

Anyway its about ULEZ i guess, i couldn't give a damn about it, my new car is fine. Its the folk with old cars who are broke who its punishing.

 

[loftie]

Yeah. LFP isn’t that great for EV’s.

Yep, it's worse than the other ones, but they're still using them.

 

[p1RATE]

The difference between Lithium and oil is that there isn't an alternative to oil

There are a few, biodiesel, ethanol, natural gas, propane etc

 

[dowie]

The economics don't add up currently due to the generation of Hydrogen at some point its going to tip, the economics of battery's don't add up either once the mining of lithium starts to get more difficult and the cartels start forming, just like oil does.

Exactly, for example, suppose Fusion becomes available in the next decade (I appreciate people have been "predicting" that for the past few decades too lol) then all of a sudden hydrogen is super cheap and fuel cells might make more sense than large batteries.

 

[D.P.]

There are a few, biodiesel, ethanol, natural gas, propane etc

That all suffer the same problem of emitting CO2 and toxic gases when burnt.

The thing with EVs is car design and charging infrastructure largely remains unchanged with different battery technologies