Wrong.... Thats stuff you burn, what do you think helps turn all the bearings in the wind turbines, we get more from oil than stuff to burn.... (wrong thread will stop)
London pollution & ULEZ
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Wrong.... Thats stuff you burn, what do you think helps turn all the bearings in the wind turbines, we get more from oil than stuff to burn.... (wrong thread will stop)
Soldato
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I always thought there was enough lithium in sea water to power all the batteries we would ever need.... but right now it's not done because other sources are easier.
or am I wrong?
Soldato
I think it's basically that while technically there's loads of it in the ocean, it's kind of distributed throughout it. You have to process masses of seawater to get a tiny bit of lithium.
I hate to be that guy but 'never be electric' and 'completely impossible with reality' is probably a statement which will age as well as Bill Gates infamous 'computers will not need more than 640k of memory' quote.
I say that because they already exist and new trucks are hitting the market from a range of manufactures all the time. The market looks not dissimilar to what the car BEV market did back in 2012. Back then you had the do it all Tesla which cost £lol or the not so great Leaf with it's compromised capabilities but a more reasonable price, now look where we are today.
BEV trucks do weigh more but in the not too distant future they will also allowed to weigh 2 tonnes more under EU rules. The difference in payload will be minimal initially, and its expected they will later exceed ICE trucks in time with the additional 2 tonne allowance. Even where they have slightly less payload, you know as well as well as anyone else that the vast majority of trucks are not fully laden the vast majority of the time.
What does need to change is infrastructure because there isn't any geared up for trucks, UK truck stop infrastructure is terrible before you even think to build supporting infrastructure for electric and/or hydrogen. That said the number of hydrogen filling stations in the UK is actually shrinking, there used to be 15, there are now only 5 left because of a lack of prospect of anyone actually using them.
The HGV market is only just starting the journey passenger vehicles started in 2010 with the launch of the Nissan Leaf, it needs a lot more time to mature. At the end of the day it comes back to economics, you also know as well as I do that the biggest running cost for a truck is the fuel. Hydrogen is a lot more expensive than diesel per mile today and it has zero tax on it unlike diesel. The actual cost of diesel is a fraction of the price. Per mile electric will be a third of diesel. You can bet most transport managers would jump at the thought of knocking 2/3 off their fuel bill and lowering overall operating cost. More importantly, those that don't make the transition, will probably go bust because they will not be able to compete with those that have lower operational costs.
P.S. JCB don't make trucks. It's never been about big vehicles need to use hydrogen because the are big. The use case for construction equipment is just so very different to trucks as it may need to be operated in the middle of nowhere. The irony is that JCB are also making electric versions of their products for other use cases where they don't need to be operated in the middle of nowhere. What's interesting about them is they can be operated safely inside with the need for zero other measures, the hydrogen ones can't because they are hydrogen ICE and not fuel cell.
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I do have to say, as somebody who's driven a Mirai I do find it amazing that more isn't being done in this country to embrace hydrogen, like the government need to mandate that by X year every petrol station must have at least one hydrogen pump (just like they did to force the adoption of unleaded petrol).
It's difficult to explain to people who haven't used a hydrogen car just how much better it is than a BEV but if you're in that group, imagine (many won't need to, most of us have been here at some point) you're in a situation where you're doing something or using a tool/item, you know what you're doing, you may even consider yourself good at it, and then somebody else points out you're doing it totally wrong and shows you the correct way and it makes things so much easier/better. It's a total eye opener, you curse that you wasted so much time doing it wrong, etc. That's what using a hydrogen car feels like after using a BEV, because it feels like you're just using a PHEV, no range anxiety, no waiting to continue your journey, etc, just regular driving. I'm actually starting to suspect the only reason the Mirai/etc haven't Betamaxed Tesla yet is due to lobbying from the BEV manufacturers.
And in the case of ULEZ hydrogen will be a godsend as the air coming out the back is actually cleaner than the air coming in the front.
Yeah it totally makes sense if you ignore the fact it doesn't any sense at all.
Carbon nano tubes will save the day. Sodium-Nano-Air-Sand batteries will change everything.
We just need Giblers **** tbh.
It totally makes sense until you go and fill up with fuel and you realise you are paying more for it than diesel and there isn't even any tax on the fuel.
The cost to refill Nexo is ~£100 for '666' miles of range, the cost to refill a Model 3/Y with '374/331' miles of range is under £6 for anyone with a smart meter and is over £10k cheaper to buy.
Even where the BEV's get more like 280-300 miles in the real world, that's still 4.5-6 hours driving in UK day time traffic and would take me from East Anglia to Newcastle on a single charge.
Soldato
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maybe when we get to a point that all our energy is renewables and there is so much excess that we need hydrogen to store it all..... all hydrogen used in other sources is already clean and we are still overflowing with excess and do not know what to do with it. at that point it's insane inefficiency of getting power to the wheels won't matter
but untill we get to that point....... I don't care if my life would be a bit easier than running a pure EV........... if you feel that strongly against the impracticalities of an EV just stick with the best petrol car you can afford ... H2 isn't going to be viable to burn in cars en mass for decades if ever imo. it has too many other better uses 1st.
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Caporegime
Never is a strong word I know but I will be surprised if I see it in my working lifetime unless some major breakthrough comes in battery tech because as you said the infrastructure is just diabolical ATM the moment. You only have to frequent a service station and see the HGV area's to witness this. If EV's are a drive to improve that then I am all for it.
You also sight fuel costs being a 1/3rd of now. Again that will not be the case because electricity as a fuel is not taxed the same way as fossil which it will undoubtedly be if it becomes the mainstream.
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This needs context - if you're 67 and about to retire, it's almost certainly true but significantly more debatable if you're 27 and have a good few decades of work left in you
Soldato
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the infrastructure of vehicle charging may (does) need to improve but it is a long way ahead of H2.
yes H2 could theoretically be rolled out of course... but then by that same argument so could much improved electricity supply
Caporegime
A large depot that serves 100 trucks has 1/2 pumps to serve them and manages adequately. To replace that with hydrogen would be easy. To install electric charging points to those 100 trucks in the yard will not be easy nor cheap.
Biden has subsidised hydrogen/kg cost, they are doing something more to push that technology advancement, nothing out of europe yet.
equally, in the UK , I don't see the golden age 10p/kwh home smart charging, vs ev charging station price disparity lasting - govt is missing a chunk of tax revenue, difficult to recoup even with annual mileage tax.
if you can divert that off-peak electricity at source to create 30p/unit hydrogen (like netherlands) for HGV&other users, market will prevail.
equally, in the UK , I don't see the golden age 10p/kwh home smart charging, vs ev charging station price disparity lasting - govt is missing a chunk of tax revenue, difficult to recoup even with annual mileage tax.
if you can divert that off-peak electricity at source to create 30p/unit hydrogen (like netherlands) for HGV&other users, market will prevail.
I'll crosspost this coming soon in Khan/Ming's kingdom
.... suv driver it amusingly threw this at me 2 weeks ago
Alongside their growing popularity, there is also a determined momentum to crack down on their usage in European cities. In Paris, officials will introduce new parking charges next year for larger and heavier vehicles.
need to add that to the first trip to france thread
]
e2: telegraph article uses term auto-besity -LOL - apparently Lyon already hiked suv parking prices - hopefully Khan reads this thread
Three price brackets will replace the current single price of the resident subscription at 20 euros per month. The first, set at 15 euros for large families, from three children, and residents with the lowest incomes, should concern one in two Lyon households, according to the municipality. It also includes electric vehicles “ with the exception of particularly bulky and impactful vehicles ”, as well as small thermal city cars weighing less than one tonne.
"A greater impact on the climate"
The second tranche, at a monthly rate of 30 euros, will concern thermal vehicles from 1,000 to 1,725 kilos and rechargeable hybrids up to 1,900 kilos. Finally, the increased rate of 45 euros per month will concern the heaviest vehicles. Large SUVs and particularly bulky cars are in the sights of the environmental executive. “ Fairer ” pricing “ in the face of the challenges of public space congestion and climate emergency ”, supports the deputy mayor of Lyon in charge of urban logistics, Valentin Lungenstrass.
Soldato
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push comes to shove I do think H2 makes more sense for heavy goods vehicles than it does for cars. better than battery....... I dunno. time will tell I guess but am confident H2 won't be mainstream in cars in the next couple of decades
I am on the fence for HGVs.
on a related but separate note. i saw those tyre deflating nobends have upped their game. they vandalised .. was it 60 or 80 I can't remember JLR cars by drilling holes in all their tyres.
whilst I support encouraging cleaner vehicles these people need to be stopped.
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Soldato
You can fit 30m2 of solar on an artic roof. 
People tend not to stop doing things they feel vindicated for when it's about the survival of humanity, they will never stop.