London violence reaching epidemic proportions

[jigger]

Oh can you? or how about different people have differing experiences growing up? You were talking about groups of kids causing trouble but tbh apart from the odd wrongun at my school it was all a bit boring. There was always the talk of a fight brewing between neighbouring towns but most of the time nothing came of it. Most kids in the 90s where I was from respected the law.

Anyway all of this is moot when the subject matter is certain kids robbing stores and punching cops as opposed to eating cola cubes.

Older generations had the benefit of social gatekeepers, baked in values and consequences for actions. Things that are pretty much non existent in large parts of our society today. We now have junior school kids stabbing teachers and smoking pot at break. Just like dad did.

 

[The Running Man]

We have fostered too many areas that produce these type of people and those areas are growing alarmingly.

Criminality per capita needs to go down and the UK’s area’s of issue have some of the highest birth rates in the U.K.
The goal should be to reduce the number of people incarcerated per capita and that requires more than the threat of time in prison as most of this culture see jail as a badge of honour. We really need to offer people something to conserve, something to loose. We also need to look at how instil different values.

A program of endless prison building and longer sentencing is one solution it’s just a very expensive one that’s only masking a rapidly growing issue that’s been ignored for decades.

We still need to hold people accountable for the crimes they committed.

Not giving custodial sentences because prisons are "full" isn't acceptable.

Giving lenient sentences because the system is top heavy doesn't fix the here and now problem that a crime has been committed and that we need to punish/remove that person from society because they are a danger to other people or businesses.

 

[jigger]

We still need to hold people accountable for the crimes they committed.

Not giving custodial sentences because prisons are "full" isn't acceptable.

Giving lenient sentences because the system is top heavy doesn't fix the here and now problem that a crime has been committed and that we need to punish/remove that person from society because they are a danger to other people or businesses.

Hey, I agree with you 100%, please don’t confuse me as a touchy feely “it’s not their fault type” I’m really not that guy. Really not in fact.

However we have failed these people and those things that most of us have worked our stones off to get, those things that these kids want, they will try to take them from us and in my experience at any cost. So how do we fix this problem?

 

[The Running Man]

Hey, I agree with you 100%, please don’t confuse me as a touchy feely “it’s not their fault type” I’m really not that guy. Really not in fact.

However we have failed these people and those things that most of us have worked our stones off to get, those things that these kids want, they will try to take them from us and in my experience at any cost. So how do we fix this problem?

Have we really failed them?

Free education, free health service, they just chose to not make use of it. To act up in class or skip it, whatever it is they are doing. 90% of the population can do it right, so can the other 10%.

No one forces them into criminality. You can't remove free will as a factor here.

 

[Malevolence]

However we have failed these people

No we haven't. Why are you trying to blame 'us' for the behaviour of these feral *****?

 

[jigger]

Have we really failed them?

Free education, free health service, they just chose to not make use of it. To act up in class or skip it, whatever it is they are doing. 90% of the population can do it right, so can the other 10%.

No one forces them into criminality. You can't remove free will as a factor here.

I think we have. We definitely haven’t dealt with this problem and it’s been allowed to become worst year on year for decades.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Prison and punishment have been proven time and again to have little effect on criminality, giving more people prospects and a chance in life would be money far better spent

I don't think it needs to be an either / or scenario.

I mean sure I welcome more avenues for kids to get stuck into....... and also rehabilitation needs to be properly offered for those in prison (who will be getting out)

but equally law abiding folk need to feel safe as well........ a person needs to know that if a scrote breaks into their home and robs, or breaks their things and soils their home, that a genuine effort is made to catch them and if caught they actually have some proper repercussions.

I don't want to get like America or Africa where I can shoot dead a person breaking into my house.... BUT IF the law is unable or unwilling to protect us then I fully sympathise with people going full Tony Martin

 

[Darujhistan]

Older generations had the benefit of social gatekeepers, baked in values and consequences for actions. Things that are pretty much non existent in large parts of our society today. We now have junior school kids stabbing teachers and smoking pot at break. Just like dad did.

Erosion of social cohesion, communties, death of industry, shared values, the notion of the "common good" disapearing, respect for others, an increasing focus on the individual etc was exactly where the rot began to set in.

To use horrible modern language people don't buy into to society, because there's nothing to buy into because "society" no longer exists.

 

[bigmike20vt]

To use horrible modern language people don't buy into to society, because there's nothing to buy into because "society" no longer exists.

I don't think I have seen a better use of this link

Robocop - Unemployed Person

A short clip from the 1987 sci-fi classic Robocop. Keva Rosenberg (James Staszkiel) was an unemployed person in the Detroit area. Rosenberg appeared on Media...

youtu.be

 

[Darujhistan]

If you fail to provide all with basic human requiremenst in a so-called "civilised" society then don't be surpised when people opt out. That said, there's always scrotes, there's always been scrotes and there will always be scrotes. But this country has completely lost sight of any form of morality or any concept of society.

Millions of people "play the game" and they still get f'd.

Every single sector of this economy is a complete disaster*

*Working as intended.

Yeah, those vids in London make for terrible viewing, there's no excusing that, but we're reaping what we have sown.

Succesive govt's have essential passed off any form of responsibility for GOVERNANCE in favour of letting the market decide all, with disastrous conesequences.

On top of everything we now we have the internet which has just made everything 100x worse.

 

[The Running Man]

I mean just about anybody can go into an agency and get a job starting tomorrow earning money.

We don't have mass unemployment.

Yes there are rich people out there, but there always were. If someone wants a job they van get one.

If that person chooses to throw away derry opportunity in front of their noses and actively pick criminality then that was their decision.

Prison does stop crime. If you lock someone away for 20 years, they won't be burgling your house, stealing your phone or stabbing you tomorrow. If you give them nothing sentences so they are out in 3 months then yeah sure they will probably commit a crime again. But can we accept career criminals who live in society or do we need to say that crime ad a career is unacceptable so prison it is?

 

[The Running Man]

If you fail to provide all with basic human requiremenst in a so-called "civilised" society then don't be surpised when people opt out. That said, there's always scrotes, there's always been scrotes and there will always be scrotes. But this country has completely lost sight of any form of morality or any concept of society.

Millions of people "play the game" and they still get f'd.

Every single sector of this economy is a complete disaster*

*Working as intended.

Yeah, those vids in London make for terrible viewing, there's no excusing that, but we're reaping what we have sown.

Succesive govt's have essential passed off any form of responsibility for GOVERNANCE in favour of letting the market decide all, with disastrous conesequences.

On top of everything we now we have the internet which has just made everything 100x worse.

What basics are they missing?

Free education
Free health care
Free housing or subsidised
Free benefits that don't actually have to be paid back


The basics are all taken care of. But people don't want basic, and they don't want to work.

Before the Internet we had tv. People. Could see the rich it was all laid bare.

What we have now is clearly more people with lower social values from different backgrounds who simply can't coexist with society.

 

[jigger]

I mean just about anybody can go into an agency and get a job starting tomorrow earning money.

We don't have mass unemployment.

Yes there are rich people out there, but there always were. If someone wants a job they van get one.

If that person chooses to throw away derry opportunity in front of their noses and actively pick criminality then that was their decision.

Prison does stop crime. If you lock someone away for 20 years, they won't be burgling your house, stealing your phone or stabbing you tomorrow. If you give them nothing sentences so they are out in 3 months then yeah sure they will probably commit a crime again. But can we accept career criminals who live in society or do we need to say that crime ad a career is unacceptable so prison it is?

You wouldn’t believe how they think. It’s mind boggling. I asked one kid what he wanted to be in the future, I’m pretty sure that was the most profound moment of his life. I watched the cogs turning.

 

[Dis86]

Have we really failed them?

Free education, free health service, they just chose to not make use of it. To act up in class or skip it, whatever it is they are doing. 90% of the population can do it right, so can the other 10%.

No one forces them into criminality. You can't remove free will as a factor here.

Lets be really clear. They live in one of the most culturally rich cities on earth. With access to some of the best education, public resources and the best jobs market in the country.

They havent grown up in an ex mining town in the rural north east.

 

[wesimmo]

I don't think it needs to be an either / or scenario.

I mean sure I welcome more avenues for kids to get stuck into....... and also rehabilitation needs to be properly offered for those in prison (who will be getting out)

but equally law abiding folk need to feel safe as well........ a person needs to know that if a scrote breaks into their home and robs, or breaks their things and soils their home, that a genuine effort is made to catch them and if caught they actually have some proper repercussions.

I don't want to get like America or Africa where I can shoot dead a person breaking into my house.... BUT IF the law is unable or unwilling to protect us then I fully sympathise with people going full Tony Martin

As always in subjects with very complicated and varied contributory factors, there is no single silver bullet that will correct things overnight like "Build prisons and lock them up".

Obviously prisons will always be needed, some crimes are less driven by society and you'll never eradicate crime, and any social changes will take years to begin to pay off fully, maybe a few generations, and that's the hard sell as a policy proposal.

But ultimately its cheaper and better for everybody if most crime never happens.

 

[Darujhistan]

What basics are they missing?

Free education
Free health care
Free housing or subsidised
Free benefits that don't actually have to be paid back


The basics are all taken care of. But people don't want basic, and they don't want to work.

Before the Internet we had tv. People. Could see the rich it was all laid bare.

What we have now is clearly more people with lower social values from different backgrounds who simply can't coexist with society.

Free education? The education sytem is a disaster.

Free health care? The NHS is crumbling.

Free housing? Have you seen the conditions some people have to live in?

Free benefits? That's the welfare state. While there are people abusing it, what about the welfare state for the rich and corporations? How about that abuse?

If you can't see how much more pervasive and nsiduous the internet is over TV, then you're not paying attention. Take the incidents in London, could that have happend viat the medium of TV? - I don't think so.

What do you mean by "more poeple with lower social values from different backgrounds who can't simply coexist with society"?

 

[Darujhistan]

Lets be really clear. They live in one of the most culturally rich cities on earth. With access to some of the best education, public resources and the best jobs market in the country.

They havent grown up in an ex mining town in the rural north east.

What access to the best of everything London has to offer if you live in a craphole borough? Presumably the same access you have in a mining town in the rural NE?

 

[Dis86]

What access to the best of everything London has to offer if you live in a craphole borough? Presumably the same access you have in a mining town in the rural NE?

They managed to make it to oxford street, they can get their arses to museums and libraries throughout the city.

 

[smogsy]

You wouldn’t believe how they think. It’s mind boggling. I asked one kid what he wanted to be in the future, I’m pretty sure that was the most profound moment of his life. I watched the cogs turning.

my wife is a teacher, (year 6) & 90% of the kids think they don't need Education, because their all going to become youtubers. She asked them how they will get money to start up & live in a house.
They said borrow from Parents (she asked what if they cannot)
Ill just get a loan (She said what if the bank wont give you a loan they need 3 months of income to work that out)
yeh they will give me a loan. I got make loads of money Youtubing is easy.
she asked again
some came back saying they will steal to get by.

this is not a rough area where she works. lot of Kids come in with 200 pound trainers on.. & some of the end of year teacher gifts were nuts.

THey think They will all be tiktok/youtubers & they dont need to work.

 

[Raz]

What basics are they missing?

Free education
Free health care
Free housing or subsidised
Free benefits that don't actually have to be paid back


The basics are all taken care of. But people don't want basic, and they don't want to work.

Before the Internet we had tv. People. Could see the rich it was all laid bare.

What we have now is clearly more people with lower social values from different backgrounds who simply can't coexist with society.

Part of the problem, they know they can all that for free. Another thing is that whether you're in a position to get everything free or not doesnt matter as much if you're surrounded by abusive adults or adults who just prefer the easy life. That also plays a part in how young people develop.

It's not an excuse, I know people who grew up in council estates where muggings and general violence was expected. They came from 'broken homes' but still managed to achieve something in life, staying out of trouble and having successful careers. But in saying it does happen, that influence can be too much for some.

That said, there comes a point when you need to take responsibility regardless of the people around you...