For my part I voted for Iviv as I feel a couple of players are trying to dictate the game and I can't decide if it is for good or bad of the town. Other than saying he is not playing in the right style there is nothing else offered as way of reasoning for voting Shami. I for one hope that from these games individuals can choose how they want to root out the mafia without being dictated to. In part I hope my vote encourages Iviv and cohorts to explain a better reason for voting Shami than just his approach differs to yours. 2 townies down and no clear reasoning would be pretty catastrophic to the town
[MAFIA] The Thirteen Doctors
- Thread starter JeditOjanen
- Start date
Caporegime
I disagree. 47's position flip flopped continuously last game. I have made my position clear and consistent from the start. I have also explained why I feel both Chris and Iviv's posting has been anti-town. Also note that Iviv has made it clear he wants to lynch someone who he is not even sure is scum, only mafia would want to do that. He has also continued to proclaim he is town under no pressure, why would a townie do that?
Caporegime
Also they are both claiming they have information and are withholding it from the town. Once again, anti-town behavior.
Soldato
Seeing as I started the vote for iviv, I feel compelled to address this - just in case you're referring to me.
A lot of people are fixating on chris/iviv vs Shami and that's their perogative. I appreciate that my arguments on day one with Chris lead to a real split in the voting and could potentially have lead to a lynch not happening. Basically, I did it out of self-preservation - but it was also based broadly on two facts; one, that I didn't want to see a townie lynched and two, I know that I'm a townie. My dispute with Chris helped me to feel better about my choice. However, something in his defence of himself makes me think he's town and in this respect, I'm guessing - the main difference being that I admit it's a guess (which has also been a source of dispute).
However, I have said it many times and I'll say it again - I find it suspect when people keep going on about how pro-town they are and how someone who isn't doing what they're doing is anti-town (particularly when it's aimed at me, as I'm a townie!). In this case, iviv is either so engrossed in being a townie that he can't help trying to control the process, or he's mafia seeking sanctuiary behind a massive load of pro-town bluster. I'm speculating that it's the latter and I believe it's the most mafia-like behaviour of anyone in this thread (together with justifying the vote for Shamikebab to get rid of a "distraction"). So, that's why I started a vote on iviv.
Additionally, I might have been listening to too much Sex Pistols recently and I feel like railing against perceived authority
Soldato
Thanks for your post Pookie, of those who have voted for iviv you were the one I had down as least likely to be scum.
My view on iviv is that he is the only experienced player in the game (assuming Chris wasn't deliberately hiding some prior experience in his posts before the game even began). If he was scum it would have been much far easier for him to have gone along with a similar playing style to that which we had employed with zero success in previous games, thrown in a couple of curveballs to confuse us and lead the scum to an easy win. Trying to introduce a whole new playing style to 'control' the town (whilst simultaneously getting his head around the effects of an unfamiliar ruleset) would be an unnecessarily complicated and risky strategy that I just can't see him having gone for.
My view on iviv is that he is the only experienced player in the game (assuming Chris wasn't deliberately hiding some prior experience in his posts before the game even began). If he was scum it would have been much far easier for him to have gone along with a similar playing style to that which we had employed with zero success in previous games, thrown in a couple of curveballs to confuse us and lead the scum to an easy win. Trying to introduce a whole new playing style to 'control' the town (whilst simultaneously getting his head around the effects of an unfamiliar ruleset) would be an unnecessarily complicated and risky strategy that I just can't see him having gone for.
Soldato
By the same token, it may be an established mafia tactic when dealing with an inexperienced group (and being inexperienced, we wouldn't know!).
Let's face it, the town's tactics in the past have sucked and the bad guys generally come out on top. At some point, tactics will change and success levels will hopefully change to go with it. What better way to keep ahead of the town than to take control from the very start?
Additionally, playing the town saviour worked out poorly for Jedit in the last game - why take the risk of playing the exact same role which lead to Jedit getting lynched? I'd say that it turned out to be wrong last time and people will be naturally reluctant to repeat past mistakes.
Caporegime
Exactly. You can tell because the first response when Iviv started white knighting himself was someone saying "Well we made the mistake with Jedi last game"
Associate
- Joined
- 15 Feb 2010
- Posts
- 1,080
Iviv, Shami - I've said a few times that I think you're both town (although you're both making it tough to keep thinking that ) - but neither of you is helping the town right now.
What happens if we lynch one of you and you're confirmed as town? Surely that's just going to put the survivor in the spotlight...if they're town, then we're at least 3 town down after 3 days - more with night kils...
The problem is that neither of you is really saying much.
Instead of pointing at each other, why don't you tell us who else you like for mafia - at least we can get some discussion going then.
) - but neither of you is helping the town right now.What happens if we lynch one of you and you're confirmed as town? Surely that's just going to put the survivor in the spotlight...if they're town, then we're at least 3 town down after 3 days - more with night kils...
The problem is that neither of you is really saying much.
Instead of pointing at each other, why don't you tell us who else you like for mafia - at least we can get some discussion going then.
Soldato
Also in the interests of promoting some alternate discussion and given what I posted earlier I'm going to put this out there:
## vote K1LLSWITCH
## vote K1LLSWITCH
Soldato
any reason or you just suspect him?
Soldato
let me reword that, apart from just sparking discussion do you have any other reason for voting him or do you just suspect him?
Caporegime
Iviv, Shami - I've said a few times that I think you're both town (although you're both making it tough to keep thinking that
What happens if we lynch one of you and you're confirmed as town? Surely that's just going to put the survivor in the spotlight...if they're town, then we're at least 3 town down after 3 days - more with night kils...
The problem is that neither of you is really saying much.
Instead of pointing at each other, why don't you tell us who else you like for mafia - at least we can get some discussion going then.
Did you read my big post?
The problem for me is I don't think we have a lot else to go from with the rest of the town. This is why I'm asking for Chris and Iviv to share all the information they keep claiming they have.
Soldato
As I mentioned some time ago my approach has largely comprised of assuming everyone was potentially scum, with any behaviour which I considered to be beneficial to the town making me less suspicious of any particular individual. Over the course of the game so far killswitch hasn't done a great deal to overturn my initial stance.
Pudneys posts regarding killswitch last night have brought him to the forefront of my suspicion which when combined with my assessment of the current votes on iviv have lead me to the viewpoint that he is a good candidate for lynching.
Soldato
The information 'they' have is available to all of us. It's the posts in this thread. It's the positions and attitudes that people have taken toward one another. They're not claiming to hold some top-secret dossier with all the answers in it. The only information that they'd be able to add to that which is publically available is their own interpretation of that data, but you'd probably disregard that anyway as you don't trust them.
Soldato
Those are solid reasons, i can't really poke any holes in them. Lol so you take the stance of guilty until proven otherwise, interesting stance, probably for the best
Caporegime
But clearly they are claiming to have got more from it than others have (as no-one else has shared any mafia suspects) Surely if they are pro-town then they want to promote discussion of this material? Anything else would be incredibly anti-town.
I called them both out yesterday to prove that they are pro-town (rather than just saying they are) and since then Chris has just done little jibes and Iviv has just restated that I am a disruption. How do they feel about the rest of the town? If Iviv isn't sure I'm mafia then who does he think is mafia? It's been a long time since that post and they have both been noticeably quiet.
I called them both out yesterday to prove that they are pro-town (rather than just saying they are) and since then Chris has just done little jibes and Iviv has just restated that I am a disruption. How do they feel about the rest of the town? If Iviv isn't sure I'm mafia then who does he think is mafia? It's been a long time since that post and they have both been noticeably quiet.
Soldato
most likely working, iviv was posting from his phone until late last night before his megapost
Soldato
so you take the stance of guilty until proven otherwise, interesting stance, probably for the best
I think it's the only sensible stance to take. You have to accept that you're not going to get any absolute answers, you'll always be playing a percentage game.
At the start, in a truly random vote a townie has a 25% chance of picking out scum (assuming 3 scum in the game)
If you can identify a few people who appear to be acting in the interests of the town and eliminate them as suspects then you increase your chances of choosing correctly. At present with 11 other players left in the game, 3 of whom I firmly believe are town and another 3 who are probably town then that leaves 5 to choose from. Assuming I've misjudged someone I'll assume there are 2 scum amongst that 5 which gives me a 40% chance and is much better than my 25% starting point. It's not about finding definite scum, just 'more probable' scum.
At this point in the game there's not much point trying to unravel the machinations of any 'clever' scum who might be playing some elaborate triple bluff. I'm looking for the weakest scum player who's not playing such a sophisticated game, one he's found it makes it easier to identify the others.
Associate
- Joined
- 7 Jan 2010
- Posts
- 886
I answered you yesterday, showing an instance of where I had shared what information I had, and offered to update it but you then claim it's too old and try to start more arguments. You're not truly interested in hearing what people have to say, you just want them to say something so you can find some minor point to discredit them on.
You've asked 4 times today (see quotes above) while I haven't been posting - I've been busy with work this morning. You keep going on about all the information we have as if we have claimed to have a secret treasure trove, but that hasn't happened, so whatever I post now will not be enough for you.
Still, in the interests of sharing with the town, and not just to satisfy Shami's insatiable desire for the knowledge he believes doesn't exist, here are my updated reads:
01 Brabbinho - Slight scum - Initially sounded pro-town but since has been suspicious of iviv and chriscubed, despite pointing out himself what a mistake it was last time when he lynched Jedi. Slightly above average number of posts. Starting to post a bit more content, 1 megapost followed by a little defence of Shami and more posts casting doubt on iviv and/or chriscubed
02 Pookie Bear - Scum - Was posting anti-town from the start. Once the focus was on him, he sounded town in his defence of himself. Is still in disagreement with our only experienced player as to how best to play the game.
03 Fortyseven -Dead
04 Kaiowas - Town - Has been following the pro-town path since the start. Most players that have spoken about him have said they think he is town.
05 Egon - Town - Has been voting sensibly based on suspicions from the start and encouraging useful discussion, e.g. disliking argument between Shami and chriscubed
06 iviv - Town - Has coached and driven forward the discussion from the start. If you actually read his coaching posts you will see that they give quite impartial advice - even down to pointing out his own vulnerabilities.
07 Pudney - Town - Hasn't really been under any suspicion yet, but has been getting involved with other discussions and questioning people for their voting reasons.
08 Leprechaun312 - Slight town - Seems very worried about his posts not being taken the right way due to grammatical errors. Otherwise, has not been rigidly aligned to either of the 2 groups
09 K1LLSW1TCH - Neutral - Pro town posts regarding iviv/me driving the game and explaining posting patterns on day 1, followed by a complete change of heart on day 2 and turning on iviv/chriscubed
10 shorttricky - Slight town - Has been involved in a few arguments or discussions outside of the 2 groups, which could easily have been ignored. Apparent willingness to get stuck in says town to me.
11 chriscubed
12 Shamikebab - Scum - Despite being the most prolific poster, has had barely any useful content. Insists there is no information available. Argues the most pedantic points to avoid engaging in the real issue.
13 Psymonkee - Slight scum - Not posting enough to get a good read.