Making a murderer - The Avery case (Spoilers)

[Felon]

Replies above.

The problem with the first reply (regarding whether or not the Police were complicit in a murder conspiracy) is this;

Suppose Halbach was murdered by an assailant or assailants unknown, by chance - with nothing to do with Avery or the Police whatsoever. If you're going to subscribe to a murder conspiracy where the police didn't actually murder her, - then the Police must have stumbled across a genuine murder scene, and had the idea to use it to frame Avery. That's the only way they could be involved in a conspiracy without actually being involved in her murder.

This could only happen, if it wasn't reported by a member of the public - as in the police were lucky enough to stumble across a genuine murder scene themselves, then decide to use all of it to frame Avery.

They transported her remains, her car, her DNA, her personal belongings to the Avery house and land, distributed it in a way that framed Avery in a pretty convincing way, even shooting bullets in his garage, planting keys in his trailer, so on and so forth.

They do all of the above in only a few days, without a single person noticing, dissenting or mentioning anything to anyone.

It's not impossible, it's just very very unlikely.

 

[Yaayuh!]

The problem with the first reply (regarding whether or not the Police were complicit in a murder conspiracy) is this;

Suppose Halbach was murdered by an assailant or assailants unknown, by chance - with nothing to do with Avery or the Police whatsoever. If you're going to subscribe to a murder conspiracy where the police didn't actually murder her, - then the Police must have stumbled across a genuine murder scene, and had the idea to use it to frame Avery. That's the only way they could be involved in a conspiracy without actually being involved in her murder.

This could only happen, if it wasn't reported by a member of the public - as in the police were lucky enough to stumble across a genuine murder scene themselves, then decide to use all of it to frame Avery.

They transported her remains, her car, her DNA, her personal belongings to the Avery house and land, distributed it in a way that framed Avery in a pretty convincing way, even shooting bullets in his garage, planting keys in his trailer, so on and so forth.

They do all of the above in only a few days, without a single person noticing, dissenting or mentioning anything to anyone.

It's not impossible, it's just very very unlikely.

Did you watch all of both seasons? You probably need to watch them again.

They don't necessarily have to come across the murder themselves. Far from it, they only need a few key people playing the game, which is shown.

First, you've got to remember that the state police have an axe to grind with Avery, even some of the same officers.

Secondly, they acted atrociously in this case, covering evidence, moving evidence, amending evidence. It's all there in the "show". And things like threatening the Coroner to the point she resigns, is just amazing.

Thirdly, combine the two and it's possible they only needed to think or want it to be Stephen and started the frame work in the form of tampering and concealment of evidence. It's partially all set up for them anyway. It's not a few days, it's more like weeks. Remember they re-search days later in places before finally finding critical "evidence". Things like the key - definitely very suspicious potential framing but the bullets are everywhere anyway, just got to find some DNA.

The thing season 2 covers well is the bones and the burning. Doesn't add up at all.

It's plausible that Bobby did it.

As a lot of people say on the show, the truth will come out eventually. But i fear it won't be any time soon.

 

[Felon]

Did you watch all of both seasons? You probably need to watch them again.

They don't necessarily have to come across the murder themselves. Far from it, they only need a few key people playing the game, which is shown.

First, you've got to remember that the state police have an axe to grind with Avery, even some of the same officers.

Secondly, they acted atrociously in this case, covering evidence, moving evidence, amending evidence. It's all there in the "show". And things like threatening the Coroner to the point she resigns, is just amazing.

Thirdly, combine the two and it's possible they only needed to think or want it to be Stephen and started the frame work in the form of tampering and concealment of evidence. It's partially all set up for them anyway. It's not a few days, it's more like weeks. Remember they re-search days later in places before finally finding critical "evidence". Things like the key - definitely very suspicious potential framing but the bullets are everywhere anyway, just got to find some DNA.

The thing season 2 covers well is the bones and the burning. Doesn't add up at all.

It's plausible that Bobby did it.

As a lot of people say on the show, the truth will come out eventually. But i fear it won't be any time soon.

Problems.

Regarding only a few people playing the game;

The level of conspiracy required to pull this off would require a large number of people operating at many different levels. Aside from the murder itself - the statements would also need to be falsified, things like the phone records would need to be falsified (because the phone records implicate Avery and place him within close time and proximity of the murder) The witness testimony of people claiming their saw fires and things being burned, around the time of the murder, would all need to be falsified - basically if the whole thing is a conspiracy - everything needs to be falsified. It's almost impossible to pull off without being found out. (that's before we discuss how on earth Halbach's Rav4 made it's way onto Avery's property, along with the all the other evidence and her remains - without anyone else noticing, something you haven't addressed, and to my mind not a single person has addressed this.

Regarding the motive that the police have;

The main motive the police had, would be to get out of paying the $36M lawsuit against them, which does give them a motive for framing Avery. However, there are too many inconsistencies in the framing theory;

• Halbach's death occurred somewhere on or around the Avery property, because this is where she was last seen alive.
• If the police wanted to frame Avery by murdering Halbach, they'd have to do it on his property or have someone else do it for them (because this is where she was last seen) - which would be very difficult to pull off, along with planting all the evidence without being found out.
• If an unknown assailant murdered Halbach and the police wanted to frame Avery for it, it doesn't add up that the victim was last seen alive near Avery's property having just received a phone call from him?
• It would make more sense, if she was last seen alive 50 miles away - but she wasn't, she was witnessed directly having contact with Avery on or around the day of her disappearance, which is very difficult to get away from.

Regarding the police acting atrociously;

This cuts two ways - it doesn't follow that an incompetent police force who are cutting corners, making mistakes out in the open - would be able to successfully pull off the above conspiracy theory, without it coming out somehow. The Manitowoc police force are not masterminds, they're mostly just regular cops. With the amount of attention this case has received from all manner of notable people - especially considering the immense financial and personal reward of uncovering such a thing - nobody has uncovered any evidence thus far, that points to any sort of conspiracy theory.

Regarding the timeline;

The timeline of the murder is less than 5 days, she's last seen alive on he 31st Oct, reported missing on the 3rd of Nov, her vehicle is found on the 5th. The searches I put down to shoddy police work, I don't see anything suspect about the key at all, it's more likely it fell out and was found on subsequent searches rather than being planted. Ask yourself this; if this was such a planned conspiracy theory - why not just make sure it's found on the first search? why go back two or three times just to drop a key on the floor? It doesn't stack up.

It's interesting, when you have a problem and two theories - quite often the simplest and most likely explanation, is thrown out and replaced with a gigantic pile of flim-flam, it's almost as though people can't deal with a simple likely explanation for something, even when it's backed up by evidence - people want to throw that out.

 

[esoteric]

5 people knew Teresa left after she finished with Steve and at least 3 saw her leave.

Steve saw her leave, Bobby saw her leave and told Bryan he saw her leave. Barb and Scott knew she left. Bobby perjured to say he didn't see her leave and that's probably because he is the sole killer or complicit to the death. Brendan's story is completely false and we know this because Teresa left the property, I believe there is cellphone data to confirm this. After Teresa leaves Bobby then disappears.

Let's look at everything else. The bones that were later 'found' in the burn pit after multiple searches on different days, the state Coroner being denied access, the impossible damage to the remains for being burned in the manner suggested they had to be burned in a confined space. The key which turned up on day 7 and from photo evidence is different to the key Teresa had. Impossible quantities of DNA on items, the key for example ONLY had Steve's DNA on it. The bullet that shot Teresa through the head which is another item that 'turned' up after multiple searches and Kathleen's forensics find no bone particles or even blood!. Speaking of blood, where was it all? no blood in the garage and no blood in the bedroom and no evidence that blood was cleaned up, and also no evidence that anyone was restrained in the bedroom.

Sgt. Colburn found Teresa's car days before it was found on the Avery property, obviously someone moved the car and damaged it in the process by ramming it through a makeshift car barricade gaining entry to the Avery property. Teresa had a day planner in her car and a digital backup on a computer. The day planner had appointment information the digital copy didn't have but some how the day planner information found it's way to Ryan Hillegas'(ex boyfriend) hands.

The prosecutions theory of events is complete horse manure and on that basis Steve is not guilty. The only infallible facts they have are the bones being by Steven's home and the car being on the family's land.

If I conversely try and fit Steve to the crime I have trouble. Teresa left the Avery property, this is a fact with 2 witnesses and 3 corroborations. Steve went into his house then over to Barbs house then back to his house and leaves the property and some how manages to track down Teresa. So assuming he finds Teresa and tying in other evidence in he subdues her and beats her head with most likely a hammer and this explains the blood on the Rav4 rear panel. Dead or alive he puts her in the Rav4 and from here a few things happen in the 4 hours between 3pm and 7pm when he phones Brendan for the fire;

He dumps the car where Sgt. Colburn finds it and puts Teresa in his car and takes her to the garage where he shoots her in the head without leaving any blood evidence and puts the body outside his own house and later goes back and gets the Rav4, gives Ryan who he doesn't know the day planner then hides the Rav4 on the salvage yard instead of using that big car crusher to dispose of it and kindly not cleaning up after himself.

Or he dumps the Rav4 with the body inside or close by to where Sgt. Colburn finds the car but somehow no body, then drives home and walks or gets a lift back to the Rav4, gives Ryan who he doesn't know the day planner, then chops the body up and goes to the burn barrel, burns it, all within 4 hours. Takes the remains home and dumps them in his burn pit for further destruction, all in daylight with no witnesses then dumps the Rav4 instead of crushing it etc etc etc.

Hopefully by now you can see how ludicrous it is and why I have trouble finding a way to make Steve guilty. I can't explain away everything and that leaves the unknown and speculative thinking and we shouldn't be finding people guilty where there is reasonable doubt. And there is hell of a lot of reasonable doubt in the Avery case.

Personally I think he's innocent and not just of the prosecutions crime, completely innocent.

I lean more towards Bobby, discount the computer I still can't get over that he said he saw her leave and told Bryan so then lied about it in court, he incriminated himself so hard and then factor in the computer there's clear and present proof and motive he did it and framed Steve with or independently of what the police may have planted and compounded upon their malpractice and prejudice against Steve. It fell into place so perfectly.

What I can't fit is how Ryan got the planner because it indicates he was at the car at some point to have taken the planner home where the police found it.

 

[esoteric]

Regarding the timeline;

The timeline of the murder is less than 5 days, she's last seen alive on he 31st Oct, reported missing on the 3rd of Nov, her vehicle is found on the 5th. The searches I put down to shoddy police work, I don't see anything suspect about the key at all, it's more likely it fell out and was found on subsequent searches rather than being planted. Ask yourself this; if this was such a planned conspiracy theory - why not just make sure it's found on the first search? why go back two or three times just to drop a key on the floor? It doesn't stack up.

Teresa's car was found on the 3rd by Sgt. Colburn. This is learned in season 1 by the registration check. In season 2 we learn he was tipped off by a truck driver who saw it at the side of the road. Sounds obvious to me that's when the registration check happened. By the 5th the Rav4 is on the Avery property.

 

[Felon]

Teresa's car was found on the 3rd by Sgt. Colburn. This is learned in season 1 by the registration check. In season 2 we learn he was tipped off by a truck driver who saw it at the side of the road. Sounds obvious to me that's when the registration check happened. By the 5th the Rav4 is on the Avery property.

I assume you mean when he asked to run the plates?

The conspiracy theorists claim, that this is incriminating evidence against Colborn - but only a conspiracy theorist would act this way, ask the question and apply occam's razor;

Colborn was calling control, to check information he'd been given (a plate) relating to an active missing person's case (the sort of thing police officers do all the time)

OR

Colborn was in the process of planting a Rav4 on the Avery property, right after she was reported missing, whilst removing a practically non-existant amount of blood from Avery's blood sample - planting highly noticeable amounts of it in 6 places inside the Rav4, before removing the plates - folding them in half and moving them to another part of the Avery lot, without being seen by anyone.

 

[dowie]

I'm only part way through the second series at the moment and I do have some questions about the new lawyer with the odd face and ridiculously white teeth... some of her new defence approach seems to be "baffle them with science" and there seem to be obvious explanations to some of the things she's trying to throw into doubt.

That brainwave thing was ridiculous, complete bunk AFAIK. Granted I get that there is some utility in brining out the idea of a "lie detector" if the client genuinely believes that a lie detector exists and that it is their willingness to undergo a lie detector rather than the test itself that might be useful, but that probably applies more pre-trial and to a defendant who is completely unaware. This is a guy whose default position is he spends the rest of his life inside, he's got nothing to lose, in addition to that he's been spending considerable time working on his case himself and reading up about the law etc... possible defences, things he can use and is inside with other criminals.

I think he's guilty and is exactly where he ought to be.

One of the biggest hurdles to get around, is how he used a fake name and tried to disguise his phone number using *67, when calling Halbach (several times). Her car and remains are found on his property shortly after. (that's not even considering the forensic evidence)

Can you cite what you're referring to here exactly please? What was the "fake name" used and how do you know this? I believe Stephen Avery had met the victim several times before so it sounds a bit fishy.

 

[PermaChanged]

Can you cite what you're referring to here exactly please? What was the "fake name" used and how do you know this? I believe Stephen Avery had met the victim several times before so it sounds a bit fishy.

They touch on this in the 2nd series later on, basically he was selling his sisters truck so booked the appointment using her name - not exactly incriminating.

They also make it known that Steven had Holbach's mobile phone number, yet chose to book through Autotrader - had he wanted the booking to be off the radar of Autotrader he could have phoned her direct and made an ad hoc booking.

 

[Felon]

Can you cite what you're referring to here exactly please? What was the "fake name" used and how do you know this? I believe Stephen Avery had met the victim several times before so it sounds a bit fishy.

I had to trawl through the court transcript to find it ;_;

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...77deeeda5f52/1452485112663/dassey_4_16_07.pdf

Page 46;

You're going to hear about the timeline of October 31st. You're going to hear that at 8:12 in the morning on the 31st, Steven Avery lures or calls, um, Autotrader Magazine, and Teresa Halbach is asked to come out to the scene.

You're also going to hear she'd been there five times before, um, but always with the name of, uh, Steven Avery. Uh, at least I think that's what the evidence is going to show. But Mr. Avery used a different name, uh, that is, B Janda, to get her to come out on that afternoon

Within the context, it's extremely incriminating and suspicious;

A man calls a company asking a woman to attend, using a different name, woman in question attends and is never seen again, is then reported missing and subsequently found dead on the premises..

 

[dowie]

Within the context, it's extremely incriminating and suspicious;

A man calls a company asking a woman to attend, using a different name, woman in question is then reported missing and subsequently found dead on the premises..

Hang on, you previously stated he called using a withheld number and gave a "fake name". That now seemingly isn't true and apparently he simply was selling a truck on behalf of his sister. Where is the reference to the withheld number and do we know that he didn't withhold his number during the previous phone calls?

This fake name thing is especially silly given that she's been to the Avery residence several times and knows that she's going to the Avery residence again, since it is the exact same address on a road that is even named Avery.

The explanation for the name checks out, it wasn't a fake name and it was indeed related to the truck that was being sold. I think you're reading way too much into that one tbh..

 

[Felon]

Hang on, you previously stated he called using a withheld number and gave a "fake name". That now seemingly isn't true and apparently he simply was selling a truck on behalf of his sister. Where is the reference to the withheld number and do we know that he didn't withhold his number during the previous phone calls?

This fake name thing is especially silly given that she's been to the Avery residence several times and knows that she's going to the Avery residence again, since it is the exact same address on a road that is even named Avery.

The explanation for the name checks out, it wasn't a fake name and it was indeed related to the truck that was being sold. I think you're reading way too much into that one tbh..

It's highly suspicious within the context;

He called Autotrader magazine, using someone elses name (maybe fake was pushing it I'll admit) his sisters name, using her phone - asking specifically for the same girl to come out again and take photos.

He then made two calls to Teresa Halbach, with an attempt to disguise his number using *67 on October 31st. (the only two times he used *67 that day) followed by a third call without *67 - which looks like an alibi call.

http://stevenaverycase.com/steven-avery-phone-call-records#sthash.Nk1SCifp.dpbs

She then disappears.

 

[dowie]

It's highly suspicious within the context;

I can see why calling about a fake name and using a withheld number is suspicious as you claimed before but that isn't what happened. I don't see that listing his sister's truck under her name is suspicious in itself, especially as that truck does indeed exist. I mean what was suspicious about it? If it was suspicious in the sense that you think he was trying to conceal where she'd be going then it seems clear she knew she would be visiting the Averys, he's not concealed the address, I mean they live on Avery road and she knows that the surname given is essentially the Averys.

The calling from a withheld number, perhaps, though would be interested to see how often he does that on other days, what his explanation is for that etc.. it isn't like he withheld his number when calling up auto trader and he game them the address on Avery road.

That other call though, that is interesting, I've not finished the season yet but does anyone know if that was mentioned? In particular where was the approx location for her mobile when receiving that call? And what was Avery's explanation for it etc..?

 

[esoteric]

My friend just mentioned something so stupid, simple and nonsensical.

So lets say Teresa did go into Steve's shack and everything went down and then she's in the burn pit. What's the deal with putting her body in the Rav4? did he drive it 2 yards to the burn pit? take the body offsite and burn it and then bring it back? why do you put evidence of your crime on your door step after taking it away.

He's a criminal mastermind at times and a complete dunce for the rest.

He abducted a woman that people knew of her whereabouts. Dunce.
Molested her, stabbed her in the stomach, Brendan raped her and slit her throat yet didn't leave a single trace of blood or any DNA or evidence of any of that happening or evidence that it was cleaned up. Criminal Mastermind.
Shot her in the garage with no one hearing. Criminal Mastermind.
Didn't clean the garage evidence after brilliantly cleaning the house. Dunce.
Put the body in her car. Dunce.
Didn't take the body away. Dunce.
Took body back out of the car yet after brilliantly cleaning the house didn't clean the car. Dunce.
Put body in his own burn pit. Dunce.
Stashed the car on his own property instead of using any of the equipment to destroy it. Dunce.

 

[Doggie2k]

I also don't understand why they didn't investigate the ex-boyfriend or the room mate that didn't report her missing alibi! Also the ex boyfriend deleting phone messages after she had disappeared.

It beggars believe that they only singled out Steven

Oh a quick google search has come up with a news story from yesterday that Kathleen Zellner has taken on Steven Avery's case, a successful lawyer in overturning convictions!! i guess there will be a season 3

 

[Felon]

I can see why calling about a fake name and using a withheld number is suspicious as you claimed before but that isn't what happened. I don't see that listing his sister's truck under her name is suspicious in itself, especially as that truck does indeed exist. I mean what was suspicious about it? If it was suspicious in the sense that you think he was trying to conceal where she'd be going then it seems clear she knew she would be visiting the Averys, he's not concealed the address, I mean they live on Avery road and she knows that the surname given is essentially the Averys.

To be fair, the first place I read this was from the DA Ken Kratz who was saying it was a fake name, which was widely reported; https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/...en-details-left-out-making-murderer/79010588/

When you read the court transcripts, it's more difficult to claim he was using a fake name, however I still think it's suspicious that he chose to call Autotrader as Steven Avery but claimed it was his sister, whilst asking for a specific person for the job. There is a theory that Halbach was frightened of Avery, because on the last occasion she went - he confronted her wearing only a towel, so he might have called using his sisters name - in order to get her to think she might not be meeting Steven. However - she would still have known she was going to the Avery's as the address was obvious.

The calling from a withheld number, perhaps, though would be interested to see how often he does that on other days, what his explanation is for that etc.. it isn't like he withheld his number when calling up auto trader and he game them the address on Avery road.

According to the phone records in evidence, he never uses *67 apart from when he calls her those two times before she disappears, followed by a third time - which is a suspected attempt at creating an alibi.

My friend just mentioned something so stupid, simple and nonsensical.

So lets say Teresa did go into Steve's shack and everything went down and then she's in the burn pit. What's the deal with putting her body in the Rav4? did he drive it 2 yards to the burn pit? take the body offsite and burn it and then bring it back? why do you put evidence of your crime on your door step after taking it away.

If you ready Brendan Dassey's original confession here, page 491 through to around 500

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...31fcb/1452804939980/TwoRiversPDTranscript.pdf (warning, this contains some nasty stuff)

Basically Brendan claims that Steven originally tied her up and stabbed her inside the car down in the gravel pit, presumably killing her - then he used a sled to move her from the pit, up to the fire pit where they presumably dismembered and burnt her remains.

Edit - it seems Brendan Dassey changed his confession later when he was interrogated and added a lot more detail, I spent about 2 hours reading through it (because I'm sad) and the sequence of events portrayed by Brendan Dassey looks something like this;

• Brendan sees Teresa's Jeep near Steven's trailer and hears a female screaming
• He goes to investigate, to find her naked and handcuffed inside the trailer with Avery
• Brendan Dassay rapes her
• Steven Avery stabs her in the stomach and they try to cut her throat,
• Steven Avery then shoots her in the head, chest and other places
• Steven Avery initially loads her into the back of her Jeep so they can drive down to the gravel pit to throw her in the water
• They change the plan and instead unload her from the Jeep and burn her in the fire pit.

Which sort of explains why there was blood and DNA in the Jeep and her remains were in the fire pit.

 

[dowie]

According to the phone records in evidence, he never uses *67 apart from when he calls her those two times before she disappears, followed by a third time - which is a suspected attempt at creating an alibi.

Do you have a link please? Are they somewhere on the site that provided the phone records for that day?

 

[Felon]

Do you have a link please? Are they somewhere on the site that provided the phone records for that day?

Yeah those are the records which were entered into evidence, you can also find all the court evidence here; http://www.stevenaverycase.org/exhibits/ that's the best link I could find, the phone records entered into evidence related the 31st only.

 

[dowie]

Yeah those are the records which were entered into evidence, you can also find all the court evidence here; http://www.stevenaverycase.org/exhibits/ that's the best link I could find, the phone records entered into evidence related the 31st only.

OK so it is just the ones you linked to previously for that specific day. You're being a bit misleading there tbh..

I stated: "The calling from a withheld number, perhaps, though would be interested to see how often he does that on other days, what his explanation is for that etc.. it isn't like he withheld his number when calling up auto trader and he game them the address on Avery road."

and you reply to that post where I mention other days with:

"According to the phone records in evidence, he never uses *67 apart from when he calls her those two times before she disappears"

My post referred to other days, we've both already seen the records for the specific day already.

So we don't actually know whether it is uncommon or not for him to withhold his number and can't make any statement in general about him never using *67

 

[Felon]

So we don't actually know whether it is uncommon or not for him to withhold his number and can't make any statement in general about him never using *67

Well, he made 16 phone calls on one day and only used *67 twice, incidentally to Teresa shortly before she died, so I don't really care whether you think it's significant or not, whether he used *67 on other days or not, nor did the prosecution or defence, because no other records were entered into evidence when they could easily have been obtained from the phone company.

It's still suspicious that he called a murder victim from a withheld number hours before she died, I don't think you need to be Columbo to think that's slightly suspicious.

 

[dowie]

The point wasn't about whether I should care or not I just thought it was a bit off that you were being misleading, we'd already seen the phone calls for that specific day so making a vague reply citing phone calls in evidence after we've both already seen those for the specific day and I'm referring to other days is rather dubious. This is coming after you earlier in the thread claimed he'd used a "fake name".

I'd prefer it if you stuck to the facts and didn't attempt to mislead.