Man sends banana to black mans table in Wetherspoons pub

[Irish_Tom]

I don't see the problem with being antifa. As Tony Edwards says, it's anti-facism. I'm not convinced that antifa as an organisation are being portrayed correctly in the media anyway. The largest antifa organisation I can think of was the allied alliance of WW2. I would hope most wouldn't be perceiving them negatively.

It depends — there's more than one Antifa:

1. There are people who literally fought and defeated fascism — the allies in WW2.
2. There are people who stand up to modern-day neo-nazis by organising counter-protests but draw the line at peaceful opposition (unless they are attacked first).
3. There are LARPing kids who want to be seen as 'alternative' but would get absolutely annihilated if they actually had to fight a neo-nazi.
4. There are the anti-capitalists and Marxists who have always been 'anti-fascist' and frequently stir up trouble.
5. Then there are the anarchists who just want to watch the world burn — for instance, the riots in Hamburg in 2017 in protest against the G20 summit.

Some people might fall into more than one category. Often you will get people from 4 and 5 attending the counter-protests organised by 2 and then start trouble (see Charlottesville for example). 2–5 like to invoke the legacy of 1 to legitimise their cause, even when some of them (especially 4 and 5) are no better than (and in some cases scarily similar to) the fascists they purport to be fighting.

It's similar to BLM — there are different levels and what appears on the surface to be a sensible and noble cause is, for some, just a pretence for some dodgy ideology and an excuse to burn everything to the ground.

 

[Roar87]

You, sir, are extremely arrogant and quite delusional in opinion. I'm sure the ladies love those traits

Zero argument, adds in a little personal dig. Classic. Did you stray over from Speakers Corner over here by accident? Does your little club have a Discord where you coordinate your woke responses or something?

 

[Hades]

I think almost everyone on here is anti fascist. I am anti fascist.

But personally I don't like the modern Antifa as an organisation because I feel their, sometimes violent, actions are actually fascist in many ways. Some members are trying to do the right thing. But others are just hard left anarchist nutjobs. They are the same as they are protesting against. So considering I am anti fascist I can't support a fascist organisation such as Antifa.

 

[stockhausen]

. . . Antifa as an organisation . . . organisation such as Antifa.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that such an "organisation" actually exists?
Does this "organisation" have a website to which you could point me?
If (as I suspect not to be the case) you have credible evidence to support your claim, perhaps you could "correct" the Wikipedia entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

 

[NVP]

Zero argument, adds in a little personal dig. Classic. Did you stray over from Speakers Corner over here by accident? Does your little club have a Discord where you coordinate your woke responses or something?

1 - the **** is a discord?
2 - the fact you think I'm part of the apparent intelligent debate club that is speakers corner I will take as a compliment
3 - love the ironic rebutal
4 - not all posts are required to be counter arguments, simple statements are just as effective
5 - please don't use the term "woke" if you're over the age of 9
6 - you having issue with the "little personal dig" yet no comment on the accusations of arrogance and delusion show me you don't actually digest what people write to you
7 - I'm bored now

 

[FoxEye]

Whereby 'white capitalism' is one of the 'master's tools' along with 'white empiricism', 'white science', and 'white mathematics', and is used to perpetuate the system of 'whiteness'.

Damn those racist teachings: mathematics, history, science. Tools of oppression!

Heh.

It's funny that racism is literally everywhere now. It's all pervasive and systemic.

And I'm sure part of that is because it's so broadly defined these days.

Was reading a bit on BBC Sport from a young "black" tennis player. When asked about racism in tennis, she agreed it was still very much alive, and said, "I don't feel part of the 'in crowd'. I sometimes feel a bit isolated."

Poor girl. Such racisms.

(Btw in case anyone wonders why I put "black" in quotes, it's because of the tendency for people to identify as black if they have one black great grandparent and the rest are white.)

 

[NVP]

Was reading a bit on BBC Sport from a young "black" tennis player. When asked about racism in tennis, she agreed it was still very much alive, and said, "I don't feel part of the 'in crowd'. I sometimes feel a bit isolated."

Poor girl. Such racisms.

Having been, at one time in the very distant past, much lower in confidence and wanting to be liked by people I can tell you the feeling of being segregated socially because you're the only different one can be extremely overwhelming and detrimental, not only to your mental health but to your overall social ability and outlook.

 

[Monkeymatt]

I think almost everyone on here is anti fascist. I am anti fascist.

But personally I don't like the modern Antifa as an organisation because I feel their, sometimes violent, actions are actually fascist in many ways. Some members are trying to do the right thing. But others are just hard left anarchist nutjobs. They are the same as they are protesting against. So considering I am anti fascist I can't support a fascist organisation such as Antifa.

Here we see the impact that the hard right media across the world have had on this debate. Antifa are not one organisation, they do not have one global leader. It's a political movement not an organisation. Yes ofcourse on a local level there will be leaders organising local activities but the amount of rubbish I've seen on the lines of "Antifa leadership want to make white people slaves" based on an unreliable quote supposedly from one antifa senior member is incredible. That's like saying Brexit is an organisation and then quoting the views of some Nigel admiring neo-nazi as being the belief of all Brexiteers...

I would disagree that almost everyone is anti-fascist. The rise of fascism in the past 5 years across the western world is incredibly frightening, this forum is no different...

 

[Hades]

Here we see the impact that the hard right media across the world have had on this debate. Antifa are not one organisation, they do not have one global leader. It's a political movement not an organisation. Yes ofcourse on a local level there will be leaders organising local activities but the amount of rubbish I've seen on the lines of "Antifa leadership want to make white people slaves" based on an unreliable quote supposedly from one antifa senior member is incredible. That's like saying Brexit is an organisation and then quoting the views of some Nigel admiring neo-nazi as being the belief of all Brexiteers...

I would disagree that almost everyone is anti-fascist. The rise of fascism in the past 5 years across the western world is incredibly frightening, this forum is no different...

When I wrote it I expected someone to make a point about it not being an organisation But I couldn't think of the right word. Yes movement is better.

But I still cant support a movement which includes fascist elements. I could support the peaceful parts of it. But not the movement as a whole.

 

[stockhausen]

. . .
I still cant support a movement which includes fascist elements. I could support the peaceful parts of it. But not the movement as a whole.

Perhaps if people like you actually did actively "support" the anti-Fascist and BLM movements rather than standing on the sidelines tutting and criticising them you would "water down" the impact of what is a tiny majority?

Most "Movements" tend to be dominated by activist extremists whilst the majority stands by like sheep, doing absolutely nothing about what is often a genuine problem - c.f. BLM and XR.

 

[Hades]

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that such an "organisation" actually exists?
Does this "organisation" have a website to which you could point me?
If (as I suspect not to be the case) you have credible evidence to support your claim, perhaps you could "correct" the Wikipedia entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)

Did you not read, or choose to ignore, my reply immediately above yours where I discuss the use of the word organisation?

 

[Hades]

Perhaps if people like you actually did actively "support" the anti-Fascist and BLM movements rather than standing on the sidelines tutting and criticising them you would "water down" the impact of what is a tiny majority?

Most "Movements" tend to be dominated by activist extremists whilst the majority stands by like sheep, doing absolutely nothing about what is often a genuine problem - c.f. BLM and XR.

Why would I support a movement which I have already said I can't support, due to the actions of some members of that movement? I wouldn't want to be associated with them.

Let the movement address their issues and then I may consider supporting them.

 

[stockhausen]

Why would I support a movement which I have already said I can't support, due to the actions of some members of that movement? I wouldn't want to be associated with them.

Let the movement address their issues and then I may consider supporting them.

So, on the off chance that you do actually believe that Black Lives Matter as much as anyone else's and that you are opposed to Fascism, rather than trying to do something from the inside, you choose to stand on the side lines, complaining and doing nothing constructive.

Where have I heard a saying about doing nothing, right up until it affects you personally . . .


And incidentally, I did read your protestation justifying a lack of involvement, I quoted from it.

 

[R.P.L]

Does freedom of speech run to deliberately insulting some random stranger simply on the basis of their appearance?

Well that's not something that I really care about protecting, but in the majority of cases I don't want the police wasting their time punishing either.

 

[Irish_Tom]

Damn those racist teachings: mathematics, history, science. Tools of oppression!

Heh.

It's funny that racism is literally everywhere now. It's all pervasive and systemic.

And I'm sure part of that is because it's so broadly defined these days.

You have to understand that it’s by design.

It started back in the late 80s/early 90s in American universities with Critical Theory studies like Post Colonialism, Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Gender Studies etc. And it’s grown from there, leeching out of universities into wider society and heavily accelerated by social media.

In 2015, at the National Race and Pedagogy conference, Robin DiAngelo and colleagues stated:

The question is not ‘Did racism take place?’” for that is to be assumed, “but rather ‘How did racism manifest in that situation?’ (emphasis mine)

So according to DiAngelo et al. racism is present in every situation and it is the job of everyone to seek out and discover how racism manifests itself in those situations. Denial means you're either being willfully ignorant, suffering from White Fragility, or you're actually a racist.

As for maths, science and history being tools of oppression — Critical Theory posits that there is no such thing as objective truth (except for the existence of racism of course). As such, what we know to be true is largely defined by society via the language we use and the institutions we uphold.

Our current view of maths, science and history derives from the Enlightenment — ideas of rationality and universality which were formed by white Western men. Because they are the incumbent institutions, they have a monopoly on what is accepted as true at the expense of 'other forms of knowing'.

If a scientific paper only cites other 'white' research, then it's perpetuating the oppression.

'Research Justice' demands that scholars preferentially cite women and minorities—and minimize citations of white Western men—because empirical research that values knowledge production rooted in evidence and reasoned argument is an unfairly privileged cultural construct of white Westerners.

It really is crazy.

 

[NVP]

 

[FoxEye]

Having been, at one time in the very distant past, much lower in confidence and wanting to be liked by people I can tell you the feeling of being segregated socially because you're the only different one can be extremely overwhelming and detrimental, not only to your mental health but to your overall social ability and outlook.

And none of that is anything to do with racism. Or rather, there are a myriad of potential causes for that. I was much the same during my childhood.

The fact that people are now blaming racism for, well, just about everything, including their social anxiety or whatnot, just tells me that some people, seeing "racism" everywhere, have just decided that for every problem the answer is "because racism".

 

[FoxEye]

You have to understand that it’s by design.

It started back in the late 80s/early 90s in American universities with Critical Theory studies like Post Colonialism, Critical Race Theory, Queer Theory, Gender Studies etc. And it’s grown from there, leeching out of universities into wider society and heavily accelerated by social media.

In 2015, at the National Race and Pedagogy conference, Robin DiAngelo and colleagues stated:

So according to DiAngelo et al. racism is present in every situation and it is the job of everyone to seek out and discover how racism manifests itself in those situations. Denial means you're either being willfully ignorant, suffering from White Fragility, or you're actually a racist.

As for maths, science and history being tools of oppression — Critical Theory posits that there is no such thing as objective truth (except for the existence of racism of course). As such, what we know to be true is largely defined by society via the language we use and the institutions we uphold.

Our current view of maths, science and history derives from the Enlightenment — ideas of rationality and universality which were formed by white Western men. Because they are the incumbent institutions, they have a monopoly on what is accepted as true at the expense of 'other forms of knowing'.

If a scientific paper only cites other 'white' research, then it's perpetuating the oppression.

It really is crazy.

Scary. Also bat sheet insane.

Also if I was a female or black graduate or researcher, I'd be frankly insulted by the idea that I can't be comfortable with rationality or empirical science, and that I must be more at home with voodoo-esque "other forms of knowing".

 

[Hades]

So, on the off chance that you do actually believe that Black Lives Matter as much as anyone else's and that you are opposed to Fascism, rather than trying to do something from the inside, you choose to stand on the side lines, complaining and doing nothing constructive.

Where have I heard a saying about doing nothing, right up until it affects you personally . . .

I'll flip that around. Why don't you join a far right group and change it from the inside? Surely by your own measure that is a better way to change them rather than stand on the side lines, complaining and doing nothing constructive.

And incidentally, I did read your protestation justifying a lack of involvement, I quoted from it.

Yes I know. As I suspected, you ignored my comment and just skipped over it.
EDIT: You skipped the comment on 'organisation' and just replied to the rest of it.

 

[FoxEye]

I would disagree that almost everyone is anti-fascist. The rise of fascism in the past 5 years across the western world is incredibly frightening, this forum is no different...

That almost sounds like you think OcUK has a sizeable population of actual fascists?