Matrix Reloaded - Discuss [WARNING SPOILER]

daz · 24 May 2003 at 17:18

Originally posted by cyKey
Heres an intresting thing. If they function of The One is to rejoin the source, why even offer him a choice? Surely it would be logical to just have one door and to force him to go thru it, thus saving the matrix from crashing. Maybe it was all to make people belive they did have free choice, that they are indeed free off the matrix. This might explain why the machines essentially threaten them, to make sure they make the right choice.

It is only an illusion of choice though - the machines knew exactly what door he would choose, what path he would take. He is still just following the path set before him, and as such is still within the controls the machines have set in place - apart from stopping the machines at the end.

BTW, Page 7

Hiroki · 24 May 2003 at 17:26

hhhhmmm.. i think the 2 doors thing is more to do with this whole choice theme that they have going through the film. if they did not offer choice then the architect said that the system just used to crash. and so they made it so that everyone got to choose, but it was at a subconcious level. i cant say i totally understand that part but.

I'm still also tossing it between my head whether neo is still on the path of the machines when he chooses the second door, im sure that they know he is going to do it, but im not sure if they can control that he did, like if we are falling from an airplane, we know we are going to hit the floor and die, but we cant stop it. maybe it is like a little twist that the brothers are getting at here that now neo is the one who is controlling the machines fate. would b a nice little turn around.

i still think that by the end of the film neo is definetly out of the clutches of fate that the machines have set before every other person, its just a matter of when he starts to control his own fate that is blurry to me..

cykey u only just realised about the first one?!

another question i have in my mind, is the oracle on the side of the humans or the machines?

hiroki

Garp · 24 May 2003 at 17:26

Originally posted by cyKey
Heres an intresting thing. If they function of The One is to rejoin the source, why even offer him a choice? Surely it would be logical to just have one door and to force him to go thru it, thus saving the matrix from crashing. Maybe it was all to make people belive they did have free choice, that they are indeed free off the matrix. This might explain why the machines essentially threaten them, to make sure they make the right choice.

If they hadn't offered him / the past hims any choice, how likely would you imagine it would be that the past hims would have actively encouraged the release of the first new members of Zion. Why would it bother trying to perpetuate a cycle?
Choice is an illusion over control in this case. If he'd had no choice and had to enter the Source to perpetuate the cycle once more he'd have been a tad bit p'd off with the whole thing. By making him think he had a choice the previous hims had made the choice willingly, and carried out their task willingly.

Side note: Matrix 1. I just got it. When the Oracle tells Neo he's not the One, shes right. At that point in time he isn't the one. He's got "the gift", but he isn't the one yet. She also tells him "maybe your waiting for something, your next life maybe", which is exactly that. He dies, the comes back to life, and he's then the one. She knew all that would happen.

BINGO! Ladies and Gentlemen we have a winner here.

Would you believe the number of people I come across who claim Neo didn't actually die in the first film?
Tcha! I mean, it ties in perfectly with the whole plot, everything he was told! Plus it was one more feather in the Christian theme tie-in.

cyKey · 24 May 2003 at 17:27

Originally posted by daz
It is only an illusion of choice though - the machines knew exactly what door he would choose, what path he would take. He is still just following the path set before him, and as such is still within the controls the machines have set in place - apart from stopping the machines at the end.

BTW, Page 7

Ah no no no. Its all an illusion of choice right up until he makes the wrong choice. He chooses Trinity over that of restarting the Matrix using Neo's bug patch thing. That was what the machines want him todo, rejoin the source, hence threatening him with the destruction of Zion and all the people in the Matrix. They don't want him to go save Trinity because thats not what the other 5 did. Maybe now Neo is truly free. They know he could easily choose either door, so they have to tip it in their favour. But it doesn't work.

Like i've said, why build a system that at the very last moment chooses to break, rather than fix itself?

Oh and chocolate goodness lady, cause and effect. Cause, i'm horny... effect, send lady to ladys room and meet up.

Only really clicked too on the 2nd time.

Garp · 24 May 2003 at 17:29

Originally posted by daz
I only realised about the part of the pink woman who eats the cake the second time i watched the film!

The Merovingian gives her the cake, making her feel "in the mood". She then makes an exit to the ladies room, at which point the Merovingian says that he too needs the toilet...

"Cause and effect. I have drunk too much wine, now i need to ****"

Later when Persephone (Monica Belucci) shoots one of the vampires and tells the other to go and tell her husband what she has done, she says "you will find him in the ladies room"

When Persephone meets up with the Merovingian in the Chateau scene, she says "She wasn't kissing you on the lips, darling".

The Merovingian had planned it all to get off with the sexy pink cake lady!

Heh... now that's some control

Was it me or did the sexy pink cake lady look a lot like the Lady In Red from the first film..?

daz · 24 May 2003 at 17:42

Originally posted by cyKey
Ah no no no. Its all an illusion of choice right up until he makes the wrong choice.

I'm not so sure. The Merovingian talks about the illusion of choice presented to those without power by those with it - those with power - the machines, presenting "the choice", to those without the power; the humans.

Neo is still a human, and he was given the ultimate choice. I'm not sure that it matters which choice he made, just that he made one.

cyKey · 24 May 2003 at 17:52

Originally posted by Garp

If they hadn't offered him / the past hims any choice, how likely would you imagine it would be that the past hims would have actively encouraged the release of the first new members of Zion. Why would it bother trying to perpetuate a cycle?
Choice is an illusion over control in this case. If he'd had no choice and had to enter the Source to perpetuate the cycle once more he'd have been a tad bit p'd off with the whole thing. By making him think he had a choice the previous hims had made the choice willingly, and carried out their task willingly.[/B]

Hmm. They could have just said, "Now your journey is complete. You must rejoin the source, and pick 23 people to restart Zion. There is no other choice here, this is it." Or they could have simply said "If you choose the right door, you rejoin the source, Zion is restarted and humanity is still alive. If you choose the left door, we will kill everyone." Neo would still have a choice, and he would have chosen the right door. Why show him Trinity?

And yer, pink chocolately lady does have a hint of red dress lady too.

Hiroki - yer that bit only just clicked. I knew Neo died and was reborn ala Jesus, but it only just clicked about what the Oracle said. I'm pretty much convinced she's just there to point Neo in the right direction. Theres no real evidence thats she's sentient at all. Just nicely coded.

cyKey · 24 May 2003 at 17:57

Originally posted by daz
I'm not so sure. The Merovingian talks about the illusion of choice presented to those without power by those with it - those with power - the machines, presenting "the choice", to those without the power; the humans.

Neo is still a human, and he was given the ultimate choice. I'm not sure that it matters which choice he made, just that he made one.

The choice he makes means that the Matrix will be destroyed, even after all the Architects hard work of perfecting it mathematically. I don't think thats the choice he would want Neo to make.

Hiroki · 24 May 2003 at 18:04

yeah but the architect tells him that everyone will die, yet he has chosen that door and everyone isnt dead yet... i get the sense the architect was just lying to him to get him to choose the source. however they had to give him a choice or the system would crash as the architect touched on earlier in the dialogue..

hiroki

daz · 24 May 2003 at 18:08

Originally posted by cyKey
The choice he makes means that the Matrix will be destroyed, even after all the Architects hard work of perfecting it mathematically. I don't think thats the choice he would want Neo to make.

If it was possible for Neo to destroy the matrix by making that choice, do you not think the Architect would simply have not presented this choice to him?

Why present him a choice that you don't want him to take?

Garp · 24 May 2003 at 18:32

Originally posted by cyKey
Hiroki - yer that bit only just clicked. I knew Neo died and was reborn ala Jesus, but it only just clicked about what the Oracle said. I'm pretty much convinced she's just there to point Neo in the right direction. Theres no real evidence thats she's sentient at all. Just nicely coded.

She was probably just saying what she saw. He had the potential, but something wasn't ready yet... like her cookies. "Just about done.."
as she said "Being the one is like being in love, no one can telly you what it is like, you just know it, through and through, balls to bones"
At that stage he didn't know through and through that he was the One. In his own words " *laugh* ", "Whats so funny?", "Morpheous, you know, he almost had me convinced"

Garp · 24 May 2003 at 18:33

Originally posted by daz
If it was possible for Neo to destroy the matrix by making that choice, do you not think the Architect would simply have not presented this choice to him?

Why present him a choice that you don't want him to take?

To make him think he had a choice. To make him think it was his decision to re-enter the source, rather than something he was forced into.

cyKey · 24 May 2003 at 18:44

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the looney bin

Hiroki · 24 May 2003 at 19:07

nah garp she most definetly predicted that. it runs with all of the philosophies and themes presented in the film. just in the same way that the oracle predicted that trinities life would be in his hands as was morpheus's life. but as morpheus says she tells you what u need to hear, so obviously she knew that she shouldnt tell him he was the one coz he wasnt the one yet, but instead that he was waiting for something.

as for the choice, he did have the choice because as the architect said without choice the system just crashed. however they tried to make him THINK that he had no choice but to go with the source option..

hiroki

Garp · 24 May 2003 at 19:34

Originally posted by Hiroki
nah garp she most definetly predicted that. it runs with all of the philosophies and themes presented in the film. just in the same way that the oracle predicted that trinities life would be in his hands as was morpheus's life. but as morpheus says she tells you what u need to hear, so obviously she knew that she shouldnt tell him he was the one coz he wasnt the one yet, but instead that he was waiting for something.

Point

as for the choice, he did have the choice because as the architect said without choice the system just crashed. however they tried to make him THINK that he had no choice but to go with the source option..
hiroki

Aye.. the illusion of choice. Trying to make him believe that its up to him, when really they've set it up for him to normally only take one route.

edit: I guess this sums up what happens if you start analysing The Matrix too much:

syphonz · 24 May 2003 at 20:10

I just watch the MAKING OF MATRIX RELOADED

ALLI CAN SAY IS

WOW

the effort gone into the film detail

THEY EVEN BUILT THAT FREEWAY THEM SELFS everything

OMG!

cyKey · 24 May 2003 at 20:44

Originally posted by syphonz
I just watch the MAKING OF MATRIX RELOADED

ALLI CAN SAY IS

WOW

the effort gone into the film detail

THEY EVEN BUILT THAT FREEWAY THEM SELFS everything

OMG!

PA owns too

Musta missed that comic tho.

Intra-Agnostic · 24 May 2003 at 22:09

i wasnt that impressed to be honest. I thought it was quite poor. Excellent effects tho.

syphonz · 25 May 2003 at 11:23

well i think it was a fantstic film great fx story line, i wish i stayed behind to watch the trialer for number 3

Garp · 25 May 2003 at 12:41

Originally posted by syphonz
well i think it was a fantstic film great fx story line, i wish i stayed behind to watch the trialer for number 3

Me too.. Nevertheless, I shall be seeing it again soon (probably next weekend) and will make sure I stay to watch the trailer

Matrix Reloaded - Discuss *[WARNING SPOILER]*

Matrix Reloaded - Discuss [WARNING SPOILER]