Matrix Reloaded - Discuss *[WARNING SPOILER]*

[Christo]

Originally posted by Tommy D
Just got back from the cinema. The special fx were amazing but the storyline had its crap parts. My only real questions are:

1. What importance are those twins? Were they there just to look good?
2. Did the architect say they were 6 matrix's and every matrix has its 'one'.
3. Who the hell was the guy on the strecher next to Neo? The next One, perhaps?

1. Did anyone realise that the twins were in fact ghosts?

2. There were 6 reincarnations of zion and anolomies (ie neo)



A question of my own - in the conversation with the Architect he stated that the anomoly(sp) in each case had decided to go back to zion and start again... well where are these other anamolies? Why didnt the anomoly just come back again? (ie the orig?)

 

[Christo]

Originally posted by Tommy D
AH so Agent Smith has a copy outside the Matrix

Why did the machines spare him? I thought he broke free of the Matrix and the other Agents? Wouldn't that make the machines want to kill him, sorry for my stupidity

he is an evolved virus no longer in control by the matrix.

 

[ugh]

Just got back

I havent read allthis thread,but i can say that i was NOT impressed!

I thought the first one was 10x better.

Reloaded just felt like it was missing something?

I dunno

Ill read the thread when i have sobered up

 

[<Dubz>]

Originally posted by daz
Just found this, makes for very interesting reading!

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

that was a pretty good read, some funny bits in there aswell.

Really did suprise me when he stoped those sentinals though, very good film just a few boring bits.

.....was there a trailer for Revolutions after?!?

I didnt see it so is it anywhere else?!

 

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by daz
Is this reference to the second matrix within the matrix? 99.9% of the people accept the first matrix, but for the other 0.1%, the second matrix is there as a backup...?

No, i belive that the 'cycle' of The One is the solution to the 0.1% who refuse.

That solution is a bit crule, give them hope of winning with a person that supposed to be able to destroy the machines and win the war.

But since previous Chosen Ones have been operating from pure logic, they (probably) thought that its better to kill Zion and let it be rebuilt by the people he chooses, rather than kill all of humanity. And hence, we have a cycle that eliminates that 0.1% and allows the matrix to survive.

But this new Chosen One has got something that cannot be understood by the Architech, hes in love. Something that the Architecht doesnt understand, but the Oricle (sp?) does. So i think the question is :-

Is the Oricle good or evil?

Ie, is she leading Neo about to destroying Zion? Or is she trying to save humantity?



p.s.

Also the revoloutions trailer rocked! Am i the only one whos looking forward to seeing those mechs in action ?

 

[daz]

Originally posted by Kodiak

But since previous Chosen Ones have been operating from pure logic, they (probably) thought that its better to kill Zion and let it be rebuilt by the people he chooses, rather than kill all of humanity. And hence, we have a cycle that eliminates that 0.1% and allows the matrix to survive.

But this new Chosen One has got something that cannot be understood by the Architech, hes in love. Something that the Architecht doesnt understand, but the Oricle (sp?) does. So i think the question is :-

You say that, but the Architect knew all along that Neo would choose to save Trinity over Zion - he gave Neo the illusion of a choice, when in actuality there was none.

 

[Mike]

If I had to sum it up I would say it lacks the "wow" of the first film.

As for the story, I'll wait until Revolutions before I pass judgement, could turn out to be excellent, or woefully poor.

 

[Snow-Munki]

Just saw it last night aswell.

Thought it was AMAZING... but again very confusing...

but the oracle and the architech are kinda both programs so surely they both want neo to fail or umm tell him what they want to do, as obviously the machines don't wanna die but at the same time need humans to live...

too confusing, but on a side note glad i stayed behind to watch the trailer for the next film, thanks for whoever suggested that

there was literally only a handful of ppl left to see that ... glad i was one of em

 

[Mike]

Was also interesting that it showed that aren't just two sides. There are obviously the humans and machines but also rogue programs and factions within the matrix.

 

[Snow-Munki]

oh also not sure if you guys knew or if its true,

but about Tank dieing, it was only b/c he wanted loads of money for the film and the ppl making it refused so told him where to go

 

[Manlove is my forte]

As the long-awaited The Matrix Reloaded premières in the UK, BBC News Online examines its cult status.
When The Matrix hit cinema screens in mid-1999, the sci-fi film community were waiting with bated breath for George Lucas' belated return to the Star Wars universe.
But come the end of the year, as film critics and moviegoers totted up their best of the year lists, The Phantom Menace was appearing in the year's great turkeys, not triumphs.
The Matrix, however, had made an enormous impact.
My input on the matrix.

99.9% of all humans live happily in the matrix unaware of its existence.

0.1% find it hard to cope and feel as though there is something wrong. I.e. they feel a lot of choice is out of there hands (which it is in the matrix the machines and the program make the decisions)

0.1% of 5 billion is about half a million. what does this mean.

this means that half a million people are not content with living in the matrix. The program is not suited to them. This is a lot of people. So if they were removed from the matrix and put into a separate program that was better suited to them they would still function. Thus not loosing the crop.

Neo is the 6th one. The one is the person who is completely unique in the matrix and he is able to do as he wants in the matrix. he can break all the rules. but what if he was not only the one for the big matrix but also the one for the 0.1% matrix. basically he could also see through this code.

The Architect needs Neo to reenter the source IMO so that the anomaly in the matrix (him) is returned to zero. I think that they fear that after this point (the choice) his power will grow and his vision will improve so that he can see outside the matrix and in the 0.1% matrix.

When Neo returns to the source and chooses the 32 people. His prophecy is retold. He died in the matrix after freeing the first humans into Zion.

Now the one cant die in the matrix as Neo showed. So there was a flaw in the prophecy. This ties back to show that the robots were not lying about resetting the matrix.

This is a cycle a predictable cycle that happens every 100 years. that means that this cycle had been going for 700 years. (I have included 100 years for the garden of Eden)

So basically I think there is a Separate matrix for those who cant cope with the first. The code would be a little different but they would be more willing to accept this reality than the original one. Think of it as the humans could not endure Eden so a slightly more miserable reality was created some humans could not cope with this reality so a slightly more miserable one was created.

Neo is now learning that he can control this one.

Agent smith. When Agent smith had neo in him he discovered choice. When the agents had an upgrade Smith was going to be deleted. He went rogue. He had a bit of Neo in him and was able to manipulate some rules of the matrix namely duplication. When he entered the phone he hacked into this human in the same way the humans hacked into the matrix. So Like when the humans have part of them exist in the matrix Smith has part of him existing in some blokes mind.

What else made me think there are 2 matrices? Neo's dreams he predicted Trinaity's death. He even told trinity to stay out of the matrix knowing that she would die. Events happened and she entered. Now were these events preordained? I think they were. I think no matter what Neo was going to be faced with the choice of Trinity's life or the survival of the human race. Every other One would have had a similar choice. As the Architect told Neo the Matrix repeated itself. A lot of what happened in this film could not have been luck. I.e. Morpheus and trinity not being riddled with bullets in the car chase, and Morpheus being able to keep up in the fight with the Agent remember these agents are upgrades to smith and Smith pounded Morpheus' ass in the first film.

If the key maker had died at that point then the prophecy would not have been fulfilled.

These events show me that the people involved in Neo's life are pre ordained. It has happened before. The oracle can recognise these people and tell them what their future holds. If such people were freed and had a choice as to whether or not to re enter the matrix the Oracle could not make these predictions. It has happened in every cycle so that must mean that they are controlled both in the matrix and outside. How else could you predict love?


Why does the matrix only want the one to return to the code? I think this is because he is the most concentrated defiance of the matrix. The rest that have left the matrix, have slight anomalies in their code but Neo has loads.

 

[Snow-Munki]

Kronologic, thanks for that, a good read and possible explanation.

i take it the only way to find out all the answers is to watch the next film ?

November

 

[Monster]

I saw it last night. Thought the scene where he fights like 60 Smith agents is funky, but some bits seem ridiculous at the start like when he is flying about. They do become useful later on. The overall style of the film does not match up anywhere to the first, but the first was so different it made it likeable. As a second part I think they have so far done well, and I am awaiting "Revolutions", definately worth seeing.

 

[daz]

Originally posted by Kronologic

When Neo returns to the source and chooses the 32 people. His prophecy is retold. He died in the matrix after freeing the first humans into Zion.

23 people.

Also, listen to the french man - he says giving peopel the illusion of choice is a form of control/power. This is very important, as throughout our lives and throughout the film the characters are given the illusion of choice even though in actuality there was only one path for Neo to take (saving trinity) and the machines knew this, which is how they control us.

 

[Nim]

Originally posted by daz
Just found this, makes for very interesting reading!

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Woah. ()

Thanks a bundle for posting that - it managed to attach some intelligent logic to the thoughts I was trying to rationalise. The whole "Zion is a second matrix" theory hit me the moment he stopped the machines in the real world, but I immediately thought that this would be a somewhat clichéd and almost patronising ending. If you can have two levels, why not 30 or 40 - the obvious answer was that is merely the control layer did not dawn on me until this morning. It technically isn't even a layer really, more a quarantine.

The allusions to Gnosticism is the first film did not quite escape me, but the depth of the allegory was nowhere near what I was thinking about until I read that page.

The way I see it, until you start to appreciate the significance of the religious iconography put forward, you can't fully appreciate the film. It affirms its status as a film that holds its position regardless of how much you try and read into it. Massively fulfulling if you're prepared to look deep enough, yet shallow enough to appeal to those who merely want an action film. I fully intend to fall into both groups.

Matrix -> Reloaded = Star Wars -> ESB. Hopefully that analogy will fail with the third film, and Revolutions will make my hair fall out from shock, rather than resort to Ewoks.

 

[Toekiller]

The Animatrix program last nigh on C5, also showed where they got there intel on the burrowing machines. Nice touch. Had a very nice opening sequence as well.

One thing to add to all of this. When neo and the counciller visit the engineering level. He mentions he knows nothing about the machines down there. I got the impression he meant everybody. IE a bit like the humans in Time Machine ( The Original ). They didn't know how the world worked or how the food appeared. They just got on with it.

If Zion is destroyed every 100 years, then how in scooby do 23 people set up a base like that. They would need the help of the machines.

I'm leaning towards there not being a 2nd matrix. The anomoly they are trying to control can only be controlled in the real world. Perhaps by choosing the other door whitch no other anomoly had done before, he gained extra powers outside of the matrix.

Also if there was this extra matrix to control the anomoly, why go to all that trouble trying to kill them in the main matrix?

If I was the architect, then I wouldn't have given him the option of 2 doors or I'd have lied to him

Oh and didn't that mech suit own.

 

[Baddass]

when neo stops the machines it kinda looks like he is emitting an EMP like the ships can and it totally disables the machines but also nails him quite a lot

also in the trailer for Revolutions it shows Neo flying through the underground pipes in the real world being chased by the machine sentinals. Either he has found a way of having his abilities outside the matrix or they are within a second level of the matrix......good either way

also the trailer shows a massive showdown between Smith and Neo in the rain and it seemed as if maybe Smith was trying to take over or something, he's not workign fro the machines anymore, hes trying to take over all by himself....sure i heard somethign said form the Oracle in the trailer about Neo being the only thing standing oin the way of Smith?!?!? am i imagining it??

 

[Manlove is my forte]

Originally posted by Toekiller
The Animatrix program last nigh on C5, also showed where they got there intel on the burrowing machines. Nice touch. Had a very nice opening sequence as well.

One thing to add to all of this. When neo and the counciller visit the engineering level. He mentions he knows nothing about the machines down there. I got the impression he meant everybody. IE a bit like the humans in Time Machine ( The Original ). They didn't know how the world worked or how the food appeared. They just got on with it.

If Zion is destroyed every 100 years, then how in scooby do 23 people set up a base like that. They would need the help of the machines.

I'm leaning towards there not being a 2nd matrix. The anomoly they are trying to control can only be controlled in the real world. Perhaps by choosing the other door whitch no other anomoly had done before, he gained extra powers outside of the matrix.

Also if there was this extra matrix to control the anomoly, why go to all that trouble trying to kill them in the main matrix?

If I was the architect, then I wouldn't have given him the option of 2 doors or I'd have lied to him

Oh and didn't that mech suit own.

The councillor also mentioned that the machines needed the humans o survive and the humans needed the machines. Some of the humans could have been aware of their plight but known there was little they could do.

I dont think they were trying to kill anyone in the matrix. All the aggressors were tests or a means to control the people inside the matrix.

As I said above. The 2nd matrix would be required to insure that the cycle continued. What if the morpheus character in the cycle got out of the matrix and used his newly found choice and decided to spend the rest of his life partying?
The perception of choice is the way the matrix controls the humans. By letting some people into an alternate matrix and allowing them to perceive that they have a choice to go back in to the matrix to fight the robots. The robots are retaining their control.

The architect did try to dissuade Neo from choosing to save trinity telling him that she was already dead. and all his predecessors had taken the other door. He knew the path Neo was going to take only because he could interpret all of neo's decisions as the wall of TV's showed. Neo is the only One to have taken that path but I dont think it was predetermined I think it was because he truly could make decisions so he could have been an anomaly inside an anomaly.

The other reason Why I dont think Neo has ever entered the real world is because there is no way he could have stopped the sentinels. He is human. The only thing that is different about him is the way his mind works not his body. This is not the Xmen. He just has a superior mind which has the ability to perceive the code of the matrix and to bend the matrix to his will.

When Neo was first part of the matrix he was not able to do the things he now does because he was not able to perceive the matrix. So even once he used his skills inside the matrix he still could have not realised he was inside another program for the same reasons. He learnt the "truth" once when he first left the matrix he has now learnt a new "truth" and now could have realised that the new "truth" is also an illusion. We will have to wait till November to find out.

One other point to make again is that when fighting on the lorry Morpheus was fighting an upgrade to Agent Smith. Agent smith beat him down with out even breaking a sweat. This agent which is superior to the Smith in the first film (as noted by Neo in the first fight of the film) actually seemed to struggle against Morpheus. Why is this? because he was only sent to give the impression of a war. Also being computer programs they would have perfect aim. Therefore each bullet fired by any of the agents or the twins would have hit their intended target. Again I think this was to make the humans perceive that they were in threat when they weren't.

 

[Baddass]

A few more points:

1. The french guy never actually fights Neo.....bet he is a good program and puts up a good fight against Neo in Revolutions!

2. The protector guy of the Oracle seemed pretty hard too

3. The virus twons: are they dead?? looked like they kinda did their disappearing thing at the top of the explosion so maybe they survived??

4. If Neo gave Smith some extra powers in the original Matrix and it freed him from being an Agent then its possibel that Neo also has the ability to clone himself?? Would be cool to have some backup, although dont think they will do it Also he gives Smith powers, Smith gives him powers (to control the machines outside the Matrix...liek Smith can)..that makes sense.

5. If it is a Matrix within a Matrix then (as said before on this thread) easy way to explain bringing himself back from the dead along with trinity because he is still really in the matrix when he snuff it in the ship etc.....makes sense. Also everything can be predicted my the oracle....Morpheus finding the one, trinity falling in love with the one, etc so the machiens can still predict the "real world" as its not real, just another layer of the program. Neo is beginning to realise he can now try and break out of this 2nd layer


6.I wouldnt be surprised to hear Smith say "Neo......I am your father!!" lol

 

[Baddass]

just wanted to say that what makes this movei great is the fact that its confusing and that it is copmplicated.....makes you wanna watch it again just so you can try and figure it all out..........good plot IMO and entertaining as far as fighting can car chases go too........brilliant movie