May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

[RopAyy]

If you do these deeds to be rewarded and not punished then that is the reasoning behind doing them, the intetion. So surely it's not longer a good deed for the sake of it but instead it's for selfish reasons.

Besides, no matter how many good deeds I carry out, for no other reason than that they are the right thing to do, it won't mean squat to god because I don't believe in him and I'm going to hell.



Again, the reason behind doing these deeds isn't selfless, the reason for these deeds is following laws that will get you into heaven. That's selfish in a way and as you said that it was the intentions that mattered and not the deed itself, then these deeds are in fact not helping you to get into heaven.

Agreed. The good deeds i do on a daily basis are motivated by my wanting to help others when i can, im not on a point scoring list trying to tick all the boxes to get past the pearly gates.
And on the other hand the bad things i do are not always because im motivated to doing evil to others it just happens.

 

[RDM]

Probably but then in those days our laws wouldnt have applied...

Rape is rape though isn't it? Does it matter if it is against the law or not? It is abhorrent whomever the victim is. Just because it is not against the law to rape your wife (as it isn't in many countries still and wasn't all that long ago in the UK) does that make it right? Just because it wasn't against the law to have sex with a nine year old does that make it right?

it was a free for all from what i have studied...also remember its all fine and dandy to accuse the prophet Muhammad[pbuh] as a rapist etc etc but the people who were actively persecuting him and his people were also raping and pillaging as well.

The defence "Well he started it!" isn't really applicable even in the school playground, why should it be so for the head of a major religion?

Regardless i dont think he can be accused of raping her.

Do you honestly believe that having sex with a nine year old is fine?

 

[Yas786]

so how do you interpret

Like i said i interpret it in a different way to you..whether i tell you or not isnt going to make a difference is it now?.

 

[Yas786]

Ra


Do you honestly believe that having sex with a nine year old is fine?

Oh FFS are you really that silly to think that i think its prefectly ok to have sex with a 9 yr old?/...i mean seriously.

I mean please point out to me where i have said that its perfectly ok to have sex with a 9 yr old girl??.

 

[Stevio]

Agreed. The good deeds i do on a daily basis are motivated by my wanting to help others when i can, im not on a point scoring list trying to tick all the boxes to get past the pearly gates.
And on the other hand the bad things i do are not always because im motivated to doing evil to others it just happens.

Trouble is though, according to pretty much every religion (at least the Abrahamic ones) we're going to hell anyway because we have no faith in god.

 

[Tefal]

Like i said i interpret it in a different way to you..whether i tell you or not isnt going to make a difference is it now?.

I'm curious how you interpret it.



Like i said I can only find references to slaves and captives, so was curious.

 

[RopAyy]

Trouble is though, according to pretty much every religion (at least the Abrahamic ones) we're going to hell anyway because we have no faith in god.

Suits me, least ill be warm...

Really though, i would not agree to be part of a religion that states in its terms and conditions that those who do not believe will go to hell. That to me is a threat a way to force people to believe.

I do ponder some times how many people would actually pick a religion if they were not brought up in to it?

I could understand people having faith in higher powers, this comes from humanitys need to comprehend why things happen, so obviously a higher power comes in to play when something happens that is unexplainable but for people to follow certain customs and traditions of religions i find daft in a lot of cases. I believe that if you had no influence of religion on your life until you reached an age where you can understand what is been taught to you that the number of people following religious teachings would drop.

 

[Yas786]

Rape is rape though isn't it? Does it matter if it is against the law or not? It is abhorrent whomever the victim is. Just because it is not against the law to rape your wife (as it isn't in many countries still and wasn't all that long ago in the UK) does that make it right? Just because it wasn't against the law to have sex with a nine year old does that make it right?



The defence "Well he started it!" isn't really applicable even in the school playground, why should it be so for the head of a major religion?

Thanks for pointing out the blatantly obvious lol... yes i know exactly what your saying but neither am i saying that its ok to go and rape women. All i said is that in those days our laws wouldnt have applied....that does not mean that i think rape was a good thing.

Well neither do i think that but it annoys me to no end that people will always have a dig at islam for starting wars but conveniently forgetting that it takes 2 to tango or is it a case that because its islam that it fine to forget that it wasnt only the muslims doing the invading etc but had no choice when they were being actively attacked.

 

[RDM]

Oh FFS are you really that silly to think that i think its prefectly ok to have sex with a 9 yr old?/...i mean seriously.

I mean please point out to me where i have said that its perfectly ok to have sex with a 9 yr old girl??.

Well, you seem to accept it was OK for the founder of your religion do have sex with a nine year old so why would it not be acceptable for others? Is "times change" a valid excuse when it is not allowed for many other changes? Is "times change" a valid excuse when allegedly Mohammed lived his live according to Gods word?

 

[haroon]

of course, murdering is a sin against all humanity, except when god wants some killin' adoin' then it's just dandy!

fighting for Allah and murder someone are two very different things,the world of full of unjust people who kill and do very bad things to society (hitler example),now if hitler was alive at time of muhammed (peace be upon him) and mohammed was ordered by Allah to kill him because of how unjust he was with his people i don't think if you were morally just minded you would say that was a bad thing...

The people the prophets ever fought against were ery bad wicked people.

 

[RDM]

Well neither do i think that but it annoys me to no end that people will always have a dig at islam for starting wars but conveniently forgetting that it takes 2 to tango or is it a case that because its islam that it fine to forget that it wasnt only the muslims doing the invading etc but had no choice when they were being actively attacked.

The difference would be that I am not holding the actions of the other side as some sort of ideal way to live your life. If you are going to put Mohammed on a pedastel then you need to be able to answer the apparent contradictions between what would be considered decent, acceptable behaviour and what he actually did.

 

[RopAyy]

Thanks for pointing out the blatantly obvious lol... yes i know exactly what your saying but neither am i saying that its ok to go and rape women. All i said is that in those days our laws wouldnt have applied....that does not mean that i think rape was a good thing.

Well neither do i think that but it annoys me to no end that people will always have a dig at islam for starting wars but conveniently forgetting that it takes 2 to tango or is it a case that because its islam that it fine to forget that it wasnt only the muslims doing the invading etc but had no choice when they were being actively attacked.

No not at all, Muslims were not the only ones to blame.
Most religions have started wars or conflicts over beliefs in the past.
Its now in the more civilised world where people respect each others beliefs that religious bickering becomes a problem and it does seem that the Islamic community needs to integrate and step forward in time with the rest of the world.
The laws are out dated in this current world and thus causing the radicals to act out against modern society.
You really dont see that many Christians turning themselves in to a Jalfrezi over the word of god or because someone drew a picture of their prophet!

 

[Yas786]

Well, you seem to accept it was OK for the founder of your religion do have sex with a nine year old so why would it not be acceptable for others? Is "times change" a valid excuse when it is not allowed for many other changes? Is "times change" a valid excuse when allegedly Mohammed lived his live according to Gods word?

Well as i said back in those days it was perfectly acceptable to have sex with a 9 yr old...if thats how old she really was...ive looked around and theres no solid proof that Ayesha was 9 yrs old when she married the prophet. In fact no one really knows other than pure speculation...unless you have solid proof that she was actually 9 yrs old. I cant see anywhere in the Quran where it says she was 9 yrs old...maybe my google skills are lacking but i couldnt see anything.

Having a look at this website in particular breaks it down as to why its not entirely possible that Ayesha was 9 yrs old when she was married to the prophet.

http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/ayeshas-age.htm

And yes times do change is a valid excuse..well for me it is...imagine the outrage of someone marrying a 9 yr old girl in this country...i mean it happens in other countries and we get outraged by it.

 

[RopAyy]

fighting for Allah and murder someone are two very different things,the world of full of unjust people who kill and do very bad things to society (hitler example),now if hitler was alive at time of muhammed (peace be upon him) and mohammed was ordered by Allah to kill him because of how unjust he was with his people i don't think if you were morally just minded you would say that was a bad thing...

The people the prophets ever fought against were ery bad wicked people.

No but look at the other side of things.
WHO said the people Muhammed/Mohammed killed deserved to die?
If it was god what gave 'it' the right to order these murders? and again the people he murdered would they not have been doing what their 'god' told them to do?
We have 2 sides of people killing each other over what god said.
Is it me or did god just contradict itself with the killings?

Or..............did these people use god as an excuse to get the power they wanted and to live how they pleased?
I think so.

 

[Yas786]

No not at all, Muslims were not the only ones to blame.
Most religions have started wars or conflicts over beliefs in the past.
Its now in the more civilised world where people respect each others beliefs that religious bickering becomes a problem and it does seem that the Islamic community needs to integrate and step forward in time with the rest of the world.
The laws are out dated in this current world and thus causing the radicals to act out against modern society.
You really dont see that many Christians turning themselves in to a Jalfrezi over the word of god or because someone drew a picture of their prophet!

And i agree with you on that...in that muslims need to integrate into the country they take residence in...im not a fan nor do i condone these so called british muslims that spout off death to britain etc etc...nor do i condone what certain muslims did or said on the draw a prophet day. Perhaps Christians dont do the violence sort of thing but im pretty sure that the most devout Christians do get offended when they see these pics ridiculing Jesus etc.

Hell i just wish we could have a world where everyone could get on with each other no matter what their religious or non religious beliefs are. But thats something that will never be achieved unfortunately.

 

[RopAyy]

And i agree with you on that...in that muslims need to integrate into the country they take residence in...im not a fan nor do i condone these so called british muslims that spout off death to britain etc etc...nor do i condone what certain muslims did or said on the draw a prophet day. Perhaps Christians dont do the violence sort of thing but im pretty sure that the most devout Christians do get offended when they see these pics ridiculing Jesus etc.

Hell i just wish we could have a world where everyone could get on with each other no matter what their religious or non religious beliefs are. But thats something that will never be achieved unfortunately.

I agree, it is a shame that this will never happen due to the extremist in all religions and the extremist against religion.
Either way we are a civilisation that can never fully accept other peoples beliefs yes its a shame but its something we all have to deal with.

 

[samir_ansari]

Well as i said back in those days it was perfectly acceptable to have sex with a 9 yr old...if thats how old she really was...ive looked around and theres no solid proof that Ayesha was 9 yrs old when she married the prophet. In fact no one really knows other than pure speculation...unless you have solid proof that she was actually 9 yrs old. I cant see anywhere in the Quran where it says she was 9 yrs old...maybe my google skills are lacking but i couldnt see anything.

Having a look at this website in particular breaks it down as to why its not entirely possible that Ayesha was 9 yrs old when she was married to the prophet.

http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/ayeshas-age.htm

And yes times do change is a valid excuse..well for me it is...imagine the outrage of someone marrying a 9 yr old girl in this country...i mean it happens in other countries and we get outraged by it.

But didn't haroon say in the last page that it is taught in islam that islamic law is timeless, I understood that it doesn't bow to social/chronological trends.

 

[Tefal]

fighting for Allah and murder someone are two very different things,the world of full of unjust people who kill and do very bad things to society (hitler example),now if hitler was alive at time of muhammed (peace be upon him) and mohammed was ordered by Allah to kill him because of how unjust he was with his people i don't think if you were morally just minded you would say that was a bad thing...

The people the prophets ever fought against were ery bad wicked people.

of course they where...


so how do you interpret

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:

three full translation of the verse

004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.



PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.


SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Presumably you know hoe to reference these against hadiths for context, cause i can't be bothered the book really is poorly written at times.



General consensus seems to be slaves and captives.

 

[bhavv]

Quran 2:223 “your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like".

Rape?

Presumably you know how to reference these against hadiths for context, cause i can't be bothered the book really is poorly written at times.

Indeed it is entirely impossible to correctly interperate what was written in the Quran because of how poorly it was written.

As far as I can tell, Sharia Law was agreed upon by Arabic Islamic scholars, interperating and trying to understand the original text, and from that concluding that 'Women are only worth half of a man', 'Women who are raped are to be stoned to death', and also is the mentality that Muslim men in certain Islamic countries have towards women - such as the ones who throw acid over the face of any woman that doesnt have her face covered because women showing their faces are considered filthy in Islam.

 

[NeilF]

We do good deeds to not be punishished AND for reward in the afterlife

So as I suggested in a previous thread. In reality I'm probably actually more deserving of a place in Heaven than religious individuals.

I need no threats of punishment to make me behave well... I do it purely because I believe it's the right/correct thing to do, and not because I'm bullied into it. My behaviour deserves more reward than those who do it through fear of being watched or judged.

Yet this sycophantic God we keep hearing about, according to many religions, will happily cast me into hell just because the world he's created, and the events he's put in my path, have made me believe he doesn't exist. In effect he's done all he can to convince me he doesn't exist, and for that I'll go to hell! How cruel/twisted is that!