May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

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Tefal said:
Burden of proof lies equally on you.

You have zero evidence yet you state with certainty there is no god.
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Comeon now, that is not what it is saying.

It is saying 'I am an Atheist because I cannot believe in God based on the current lack of evidence'.

Also, saying that 'there is no god' is NOT proposing the existence of something. Non existence is not something that people need to prove, just like no one is expected to prove that leprachauns and fairies do not exist for this to be considered as a logical truth.

When someone proposes the existence of something, there needs to be PROOF that this something actually exists for it to be believable. People who dont believe in myths and tall tales do not require any kind of evidence for why something does not exist.

#1. Argumentum ad ignorantium - Fallacy that something must be true because it has not been, Or can't be, proven false.
If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, That means he must exist.
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Tefal said:
you state with certainty there is no god.
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Not my image, I found it. ;)

However, the scientific evidence against god is too huge to list, while the evidence supporting god is 1 book written when scientist were pretty clueless about almost everything.
 
bhavv said:
leprachauns and fairies do not exist
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WHAAAAT?
2h3pruf.jpg
 
I believe that the universe was created by the powerpuff girls.

You cannot prove that the powerpuff girls werent real, nor that they didnt create the universe, therefore this belief is the absolute truth.
 
bhavv said:
Comeon now, that is not what it is saying.

It is saying 'I am an Atheist because I cannot believe in God based on the current lack of evidence'.
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Atheism is "the belief there is no god".


I can't believe there is no god because of lack of evidence.

Can't believe there is one either.


It doesn't affect me in any way i can see either, so I'm happy admitting i honestly don't know and really don't care.





Also, saying that 'there is no god' is NOT proposing the existence of something. Non existence is not something that people need to prove
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Yes it is, if you have no evidence to support your position you need to prove it or it is simply a belief like religion.

For example Saying "there is no such thing as an atom".

Would you say the burden lies on me or you?




When someone proposes the existence of something, there needs to be PROOF that this something actually exists for it to be believable. People who dont believe in myths and tall tales do not require any kind of evidence for why something does not exist.
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Exactly, but just as they say something exists needs proof to become knowledge and not belief, the same goes for the opposite.


There is absolutely no proof or evidence either way.

Making a decision either way, is a leap of faith and a belief.

Also it servers no point.




TipTop said:
Not my image, I found it. ;)

However, the scientific evidence against god is too huge to list, while the evidence supporting god is 1 book written when scientist were pretty clueless about almost everything.
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No there is no scientific evidence against a god, there is evidence against the words in the bible, but that's not against god that's against a book written by some random people a few thousand years ago.


God is not religion, remember that.
 
^^ Atoms have been PROVEN though!

Back before atoms had been proven, anyone could have disbelieved in the concept of them and didnt require any evidence to support their claim. Doing so was never classed as a 'belief'.

Also, you dont seem to know what Atheism is. Atheism is not the 'Belief that there is no God'. Rather it is the rejection of the belief that there is one.

Please read this page:

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/articles/atheism-belief

It is reasonably common for religious persons and others to class Atheists as those that have a "belief" system. It is taken for granted that the Atheist's "belief" system is somewhat different from a "belief" in the supernatural and sundry. Proponents of such loose use of the language would wish to bring Atheists down to their level of accepting un-evidenced dogma. They then "reason" that it is far better to have a "belief" in that which has some perceived beneficial or "moral" good than that which is "godless" and therefore immoral. How very wrong, incorrect and opposite to the truth is that thought.

The Macquarie Encyclopedic Dictionary definition of "belief" is:

1. that which is believed; an accepted opinion.
2. conviction of the truth or reality of a thing, based upon grounds insufficient to afford positive knowledge:

Most other Dictionaries tender similar definitions.

Those definitions are basically saying that a "belief" is not formed by critical scientific investigation but by emotions, feelings and unsubstantiated opinion.

As a child I can hold a "belief" that the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus are real characters. I can have a "belief" that Unicorns exist and that Ghosts and Goblins etc. are also real.

As an adult I can hold a "belief" that any one of the numerous gods purported, do actually exist, and that humans have an immortal "soul". Some even have a "belief" in UFO's, the power of crystals and a myriad of other unproven paranormal activity.

Atheists do not accept that any of the above imaginary creatures or powers do exist as no scientific evidence is extant in support of those propositions. This is not a "belief", it is just lack of scientific evidence in their support.
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Tefal said:
God is not religion, remember that.
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God is an imaginary concept and idea that religious people believe in as absolute truth.
 
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Just got in from work, and 4 new pages of 'fresh' material (;)) to read through. Bhavv, Foxeye, Neil, RDM are the few that I remember speaking too, if any of guys wishes to discuss further I will happily do so over msn or something but I won't have the time today or tomorrow to go through everything else that has been posted in here. I suspect there will be a whole lot more come Sunday. My msn is in my trust... :)
 
bhavv said:
Also, you dont seem to know what Atheism is. Atheism is not the 'Belief that there is no God'. Rather it is the rejection of the belief that there is one.
.
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No that's a pile of bull crap made up by the current lot to increase numbers.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/atheism?view=uk

Atheism has always meant the exact opposite of theism, that there is no god. <belief that there is no god, and that one cannot exist.


Agnosticism is the "we can't prove it so we don't know either way" < complete disbelief in in either a god or non god

And then there's others like ignostics who believe that god must be defined properly before we can even come to the point of asking if it's real or even if it's possible to prove that it exists. <everyone including agnostics are making too many assumptions and we must go right back to the very definition before we can proceed.


Quick and crude metaphor is.

I have a coin in one of my closed hands, theists (religious folk) people say it's certainly in the left, atheists say it's certainly in the right, agnostics say we don't know and ignostics say "What type of coin is it?"
 
Also from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] As strong atheism, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, it is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
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Another one:

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Is_Atheism_a_"belief"?

Is Atheism A Belief?

No.

Is "bald" a hair color?

Is "not collecting stamps" a hobby?

If you no longer believe in Santa Claus, do you call yourself an "Anti-Santa-Clausian?"

Is there some doctrine you follow pursuant with your non-belief in the existence of the tooth fairy?

Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s).
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Yay, I proved that the Oxford dictionary doesnt always get things right.

Theists often claim that atheism is a belief. They use this characterization to claim among other things, false premises such as:
It takes just as much faith to not believe in god as it does to believe in god

Wrong.

It takes no faith to not believe in something. Do you know what the definition of faith is? It is believing in something in the absence of evidence. In other words, it's the opposite of coming to a conclusion based on something real and tangible. The non-existence of something is not a belief. It's merely a base or fallback position one naturally comes to in the absence of contrary evidence.

Is there a large pink elephant sitting on the toilet in the bathroom at your home right now"?

No? Why not? So you take it on faith that there isn't a large pink elephant sitting on the toilet in your bathroom at home? Do you think your lack of belief in this concept requires faith, or maybe it's the other way around? You only require faith to believe IN something that defies the laws of logic.
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Much like a Christian will define a Christian as something like "someone who has let Christ into their heart and knows he exists"

rather than the proper definition of " a believer in Christianity"

The people are devout believers of atheism will make up very fluffy definitions that try to hide the fact they're either using the wrong name, don't understand the concept, or are in face believers themselves.
 
e36Adz said:
if any of guys wishes to discuss further I will happily do so over msn or something
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Thank you for the kind offer, being unable to think of anything more exciting than attending your entertaining and fun filled msn session, I tried harder and thought of about four hundred things.

When I was at school, we were forced to attend a similar discussion. Herded into the gym under the pretence of free chips, we were assaulted with an hour of hippies playing guitars and a dance routine featuring some kind of colourful coat and a lot of looking upwards. Due to the air-conditioning in the packed gym not working and it being a hot day, the hippie wearing the colourful coat blacked out mid performance and struck his head against the front edge of the stage spraying the first row of children with blood. Unconscious, he also urinated. There was a bit of screaming and an ambulance involved and everyone agreed it was the best play they had ever seen.

Maybe another member could hold a discussion about the fifteen billion year expansion of the universe from its initial particle soup moments following the big bang through to molecule coalescion, galaxy and planetary formation and eventually life?

We should have a OcUK meet and put together an interpretive dance routine representing the behaviour of Saturn's moon Hyperion, shattered by an ancient collision and falling randomly back together, tugged to and fro by the gravitational pull of Titan, sixteen sister moons, the multi-billionfold moonlets of Saturn’s rings, Saturn’s gravitational field, companion planets, the variability’s of Sol, stars, galaxy and neighbouring galaxies. :)
 
bhavv said:
Because dictionaries can never correctly define a psychological trait.
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....

But they can define a the true definition of a word like atheism which is a concept and has existed for hundreds of years with that exact meaning.

It is not a trait it is a cold hard concept and definition.
 
Tefal said:
Now how about you use a major dictionary?


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
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Ok, so I looked up Autism as an example:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autism

a variable developmental disorder that appears by age three and is characterized by impairment of the ability to form normal social relationships, by impairment of the ability to communicate with others, and by stereotyped behavior patterns
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Yet it is fully proven that Autism does not always appear by the age of 3, and some people can develop autism well into their 20s.

Dictionaries cannot define words that have any connection to psychological human function.
 
So you're saying atheism is like autism? :confused:


Atheism isn't a psychological trait, it is a concept/idea/definition.


it's not something you're born with, it's simply an idea and it has a definition.
 
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