Then why do they still need to send the engines back to Japan for testing? If they don't have the capability here then they need to build it!
McLaren Honda
- Thread starter andicole0
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Then why do they still need to send the engines back to Japan for testing? If they don't have the capability here then they need to build it!
Despite all the issues I really do think they should stick with Honda. For a start they are shelling out loads and loads of money so McLaren don't have to. (Which is a huge bonus) secondly I really don't think they'll beat the factory Merc with its own engine. So if they can beat the 2 Mercs the best they can hope for is 3rd place downwards. So, they may aswell sit down and work out all their issues and how they can fix them. They aren't reinventing he wheel, Merc can do it and so can they, however they need to accelerate the learning. Disregarding merc losing their funky suspension Ferrari have obviously made a leap forward engine wise so there's no reason why Honda can't. They just have to really go all out. Or just start their own team and leave McLaren to it. 
i kind of agree, they are extremely unlike to beat a factory team, but at the same time how can they carry on with honda. When every single year honda shows they are cluless. that they cant develop, they cant put resources into it etc, and thats not just the last few years. its essentially their entire f1 career. look ho crap and how much they where spending in BAR day. I don't see how honda can change, without a massive organisational restructure and new senior management of the entire company, which isn't going to happen.
Which leaves mclaren a laughing stock, with pretty much no options other than build their own engine which they don't seem to ant to do. should right the next ~3 years off and build their own engine when we have engine rule changes.
Which leaves mclaren a laughing stock, with pretty much no options other than build their own engine which they don't seem to ant to do. should right the next ~3 years off and build their own engine when we have engine rule changes.
I guess I'm just being optimistic about Honda...
But I know what you mean, they probably should be further than where they are. Then again the Renault probably should too?? The ideal scenario would be Honda starting their own team and McLaren getting a new manufacturer/become their own manufacturer. At least then we'd have 2 more cars on the grid and the McLaren might do better?On another note they need to lose the black and orange too. Much preferred the chrome/rocket red.
I dunno both Brawn beat Mclaren as a paying customer and Red Bull whupped Renault year after year so if you get it right it's not that far fetched. As bad as Honda are so are Mclaren, Brawn won straight away with the same engine, they won one title in the last 17 years. 3 titles in 19 years with Mclaren and mercedes and one of those took a broken leg or they wouldn't have won that. 19 years since they won a constructors title, the only big thing about that joke of a team is the budget. There's clearly a lot more wrong at Mclaren than just the engine. They cannot build a consistent car even when they had one of the best engines, I really don't think they could manage both.
Soldato
Brawn wasn't the only team running the Double Diffuser, there were two other teams too.
Williams
Toyota
Ross Brawn kicked their butts
Soldato
Brawn beating McLaren was a combination of factors. Honda had spent the entire year designing the 2009 car - it wasn't just the double diffuser, it was the hightest developed car on the grid in Melbourne.
McLaren meanwhile were fighting to the end in 2008, concentrating on beating Massa to the title and trying to win the constructors. Even despite the 2008 season the 2009 car, the MP4-24, was an absolute shocker (the worst they've designed in my lifetime and sometime before that too) that managed to get a couple of half decent results and that was it.
Plus back then the engine wasn't such a complex beast as it is now - they were very much all of a muchness in terms of basic size and dimensions and were almost plug-and-play in some respects. The hybrid power unit is far more integrated - just look at the length of time it takes to change them.
McLaren meanwhile were fighting to the end in 2008, concentrating on beating Massa to the title and trying to win the constructors. Even despite the 2008 season the 2009 car, the MP4-24, was an absolute shocker (the worst they've designed in my lifetime and sometime before that too) that managed to get a couple of half decent results and that was it.
Plus back then the engine wasn't such a complex beast as it is now - they were very much all of a muchness in terms of basic size and dimensions and were almost plug-and-play in some respects. The hybrid power unit is far more integrated - just look at the length of time it takes to change them.
That's not how I remembered it.
The season started with only the Brawn cars using the double diffuser. They were massively quicker than everybody else.
Once other teams had established why they were so fast, they developed their own double and triple decker diffusers. By the middle of the season, a lot of the cars had (almost) caught up. The problem for them was that the Brawn's were too far ahead in both title races, so the titles went to Brawn/Button.
In any case, this happened such a long time ago...who cares?
With regards to Honda - for those who still have faith in Honda, this is like a husband who beats his wife every week, but she still clings to the hope that her husband won't beat her next week. Low and behold, she gets another beating the next week. Honda are going nowhere fast. They won't change. They will continue to do what they have done during the last few seasons. They have gone backwards over the course of the last few years and I wouldn't be surprised if next year, they hit the absolute back of the grid. Mediocrity is now perfectly acceptable at Honda and McLaren.
I said a few years back that McLaren need to ditch Honda at any price. I was ridiculed. And a few years later, we are having the same discussion. Any customer engine in F1 would be better than the crap which Honda are serving up and while I was hoping to see Vettel vs Hamilton vs Alonso....what we actually got in the last few years is Hamilton vs nobody (last year Hamilton was affected by unreliability at crucial times).
Soldato
Man of Honour
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Mclaren had no choice, it was a gamble, but the alternative was also an engine that would not allow them to win.
Im sure you wont care now that you have been proven wrong.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8003667.stm
(date of article April 2009)
"An argument about the diffusers on the cars used by Brawn Grand Prix, Toyota and Williams ended up in F1's Court of Appeal in Paris this week"
Three teams were using it from the very start of the season, but Brawn was by far the most successful of the 3
It's interesting isn't it what we take as fact when being told by McLaren and Ron. They stated that they could 'never win' with a customer unit. One has to question how close or far from the truth that actually is.
Surely if you bolt a Merc engine in the back of the McLaren and it delivers 95% of what it is delivering in the Merc car then you can make that up by outclassing the Merc chassis etc? After all it is just software that is different (engine modes) not the hardware!
McLaren keep on telling us they have an excellent chassis and with any other competitive engine they would be right up there (although journalists seem to disagree with this assessment) but if they have, then a small customer engine deficit could still see them as title challengers?
Also one has to remember that being at the back means no sponsors and little money for development (although the muppets at Honda seem to be filling that void at present). When Alonso is gone it will also mean 3rd class racing drivers.
A customer engine at present surely has to be a win-win for the team
Caporegime
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It's complete and utter horsecrap, also nothing to do with hindsight, aside from the fact it turns out Honda Japan has been struggling badly everywhere for years(I don't follow the industry at all but it seems all their engine programs are... meh) and they committed to a program that to me completely assured failure. Long before the start of the 2015 season I, someone with zero experience building engines, but a basic concept of common sense, time, and how these things work together, said that the idea of rushing a complex engine in 18 months when the other teams would have twice as long had disaster written all over it. Further after 2014 started and two of the three engines that had twice as long for development turned out to be disasters... it further reinforced my belief that 18 months development was going to fail badly.
I wish people wouldn't use the hindsight argument when simple common sense on day one of the announcement screamed terrible idea. I thought that straight away and I had no clue Honda were apparently struggling in most areas. It seems only Honda America has any decent engine programs going. Had I known that I would have only been further convinced this was going to happen.
Then back to the whole "can't win without a works engine" nonsense, of course Ron would say that, what else would he say. Somehow Williams got the fastest straight line car on the grid... despite not being a works team and having to build around an engine that was liable to change. The fact of the matter was with Honda with the program they outlined they COULDN'T win, with mercedes, who at the time were widely known to be putting the most money AND time into the new engines, they could be assured of being one of only two big budget teams with a Mercedes engine which conversely had the best chance to be dominant.
Are their disadvantages, sure, Merc will be 'first' to know about any changes, but a lot of fans act like Merc just turn up with an engine 2 weeks before the first test and everyone has to rush to fit it in. Merc have an advantage, though it would diminish drastically by the second year. IE the new engine is most liable to bigger changes in the first year it appears, after that the changes aren't going to be that massive. Mclaren also have 2-3 times the budget of Williams/FI, they were most ready to make small changes to the aero/covers/chassis to adapt to new changes.
If Mclaren could make a better chassis than Merc, they could absolutely beat them with a Merc engine, the problem was Ron didn't believe they could make a better chassis, he believed he HAD to have a better engine than Merc to beat Merc. He's probably right in that, but again for the reasons above it was obvious Honda was going to struggle massively to make any engine, let alone one better than Merc. With Merc they had a 98% chance for a top and competitive engine(not best, just competitive) and given the choice of a ridiculously rushed engine from Honda... who currently suck as an engine manufacturer and sticking with a Merc engine and replacing staff on the chassis/aero design side, there was an extremely obvious right and wrong choice... Ron made the wrong choice and Mclaren have been paying for that choice ever since and I think they'll be lucky to have a half decent engine by 2019 at this point.
I wish people wouldn't use the hindsight argument when simple common sense on day one of the announcement screamed terrible idea. I thought that straight away and I had no clue Honda were apparently struggling in most areas. It seems only Honda America has any decent engine programs going. Had I known that I would have only been further convinced this was going to happen.
Then back to the whole "can't win without a works engine" nonsense, of course Ron would say that, what else would he say. Somehow Williams got the fastest straight line car on the grid... despite not being a works team and having to build around an engine that was liable to change. The fact of the matter was with Honda with the program they outlined they COULDN'T win, with mercedes, who at the time were widely known to be putting the most money AND time into the new engines, they could be assured of being one of only two big budget teams with a Mercedes engine which conversely had the best chance to be dominant.
Are their disadvantages, sure, Merc will be 'first' to know about any changes, but a lot of fans act like Merc just turn up with an engine 2 weeks before the first test and everyone has to rush to fit it in. Merc have an advantage, though it would diminish drastically by the second year. IE the new engine is most liable to bigger changes in the first year it appears, after that the changes aren't going to be that massive. Mclaren also have 2-3 times the budget of Williams/FI, they were most ready to make small changes to the aero/covers/chassis to adapt to new changes.
If Mclaren could make a better chassis than Merc, they could absolutely beat them with a Merc engine, the problem was Ron didn't believe they could make a better chassis, he believed he HAD to have a better engine than Merc to beat Merc. He's probably right in that, but again for the reasons above it was obvious Honda was going to struggle massively to make any engine, let alone one better than Merc. With Merc they had a 98% chance for a top and competitive engine(not best, just competitive) and given the choice of a ridiculously rushed engine from Honda... who currently suck as an engine manufacturer and sticking with a Merc engine and replacing staff on the chassis/aero design side, there was an extremely obvious right and wrong choice... Ron made the wrong choice and Mclaren have been paying for that choice ever since and I think they'll be lucky to have a half decent engine by 2019 at this point.
Perhaps because of Ron (yes I am going to make him the scapegoat), no companies wanted to associate with McLaren - actually they still don't!
How does a racing team like McLaren not have a title sponsor for several years?!?
To cover his deficiencies in alluring a big company to sponsor his team he decided he would get Honda on board who would give his team loads of money, buy him the best driver on the grid - he just overlooked Honda's track record of making engines!
Either way, he is probably on his yacht somewhere feeling smug about how he managed to sell this idea (polished turd) to the McLaren board
How does a racing team like McLaren not have a title sponsor for several years?!?
To cover his deficiencies in alluring a big company to sponsor his team he decided he would get Honda on board who would give his team loads of money, buy him the best driver on the grid - he just overlooked Honda's track record of making engines!
Either way, he is probably on his yacht somewhere feeling smug about how he managed to sell this idea (polished turd) to the McLaren board
Soldato
Dunno how true it is but I read on OCAU that Honda have been talking with Ilmor !!
Quite how they'd know beats me but there ya go !
Quite how they'd know beats me but there ya go !
It helped Renault.
It seems that Honda have approached Mercedes and asked for help of some sort to get them up to speed. And Mercedes didn't immediately shut them down and laugh in their faces. I'm actually starting to like Mercedes. They appreciate competition, be that within the team or in the sport and understand a competitive McLaren is good for the sport as a whole.
Could you imagine the reaction if Honda approached Ferrari and asked for help? They'd be laughed at and asked to leave immediately.
Could you imagine the reaction if Honda approached Ferrari and asked for help? They'd be laughed at and asked to leave immediately.
I very much doubt Mercedes are going to hold their hand and offer any help whatsoever to a competitor.
Hmm let see, we have invested millions of £ in our engine to show the world that Mercedes are the best...which in turn is supposed to sell more Mercedes cars. Now we will just show Honda how to do it so that they can do the same without spending millions of £ (which they already have and got nowhere).
Yes they might not have laughed in their face but it's not like Mercedes offered RBR an engine when they were begging for one!
Current rumour is that Mclaren will take Mercedes engines 'soon' and Honda will move to Sauber. But who knows, McLaren move to Indycar and leave F1 it is where Honda excel.
Andi.
Andi.