Merry Xmas Pottsey

[Pottsey]

” I have absolutely no clue how to set that up in Crysis or I'd give it a go, sorry.”
That’s ok not 100% sure my self not got it yet. I should be.

Go to the Crysis folder find /Scripts>Entities>Items>XML>Ammo>Vehicles> and TACProjectile is the file you want to open in notepad.

<explosion>
<param name="pressure" value="9000" /> ** TWEAK THIS**
<param name="max_radius" value="140" />
<param name="min_phys_radius" value="200" /> *ADD AND TWEAK THIS*
<param name="max_phys_radius" value="200" /> *ADD AND TWEAK THIS*
<param name="hole_size" value="0" />
<param name="terrain_hole_size" value="0" />
<param name="decal" value="" />
<param name="effect" value="" />
<param name="effect_scale" value="1.2" />
<param name="radialblurdist" value="130" />
<param name="type" value="tac" />
</explosion>

With this you can increase the radius so physics are applied over a larger area. I believe this also lets the nuke blow up buildings and tress. Turn down all GPU setting to lowest.

EDIT: Dont forget to back up the TACProjectile file to return eveything to normal.

 

[Chronictank]

Are we talking about graphics or physics? If its physics then the PPU games do have better looking physics then the current none physic titles. It sounds to me like you don’t like the graphics in PPU games so are saying the physics are not worth while from the PPU. But the graphics have nothing to do with the PPU.

Not at all,
They are not mutually exclusive, what good are physics if the graphics representing them are poor?
I didnt comment on the technical aspect, i commented on the aesthetics, the part that in reality matters the most. I asked for you to fraps some footage of good high end physics, you provided a video of a new game incoming, but even that is not really impressive it still looks the same blocky effects we have had for years.

I don’t agree with the reasons highlighted as they are wrong. The physics are far better then what the CPU does. You say the debris looked just like games today. Then show me that much debris that doesn’t fade away and has as much interaction all done on the CPU. It’s the amount of physics that’s impressive.
Unless you prove otherwise what you say is wrong. I don’t believe the CPU can do those physics without massive slowdown.

I said nothing of the sort, i said the scripted effects look better than the PPU rendered ones

“Everything maxed so my game was crawling, so if your theory was correct the CPU should be getting hammered, however”
Why would you CPU get hammered from physics in a low physics screen? Apply the high physics ini tweak, set off a nuke then show me the CPU not getting hammered.

I fail to see the relevance of this, it doesnt matter what setting it is put on the game is more visually pleasing than ANY ppu game, That is exactly my point, you could have the most advance physics system in the world if it looks visually poor then it counts for nothing. It has been years waiting on a "good high end physics" game to come out, and its always the same "its potential wasnt used fully", yet the poor games just keep coming and coming.

“So at presant physics cards are not worth buying because any games using them do not look particularly impressive”
So UT3 doesn’t look particularly impressive? The speed increase form the PPU isn’t worth while?

This is exactly the point, the difference is so negligble its not even an issue
Physics level with no ppu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTnz-0ApWB0
Tornado effect without physics card
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMDNw6j6sg

 

[plasticmekon]

This is all wonderful. I agree with Pottsey overall so far in that yes, on default settings, the CPU isn't stressed but nobody has tested it with the increased physics range tweak.

But, is it then the case that with increased range, the CPU will be stressed more to calculate where all the extra 'bits' should go but also the GPU even more as it has to draw all these extra bits?

Now if this is true then yeah you could argue that adding a PPU would take the strain off the CPU - well so what. Surely the GPU would STILL be over strained - now more so because of all the xtra stuff it has to draw, so your frame rates are still going to be abysmal.

Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't this the reason that PPUs have pretty much been a faliure so far?

 

[Pottsey]

“i commented on the aesthetics, the part that in reality matters the most.”
To me the PPU game has better aesthetics. How is the CPU game with less debris that fades away better aesthetics?





“the CPU will be stressed more to calculate where all the extra 'bits' should go but also the GPU even more as it has to draw all these extra bits?”
That is correct unless the nukes goes off in an area you cannot see. You then turn around to see the aftermath. The GPU wont draw a lot of the extra bits as they will be behind other bits. GPU's are pretty smart and mostly only draw what you see. But still it is extra work.




“I said nothing of the sort,”
Post 157 “The debris looked just like games today,”




“to fraps some footage of good high end physics, you provided a video of a new game incoming, but even that is not really impressive it still looks the same blocky effects we have had for years.”
You keep saying it’s the same block effects for years. As I asked before prove it. Show me a game with the CPU that looks as good as Warmonger phsyics wise. The debre is good because A, There’s tons more of it, B, it doesn’t fade away like with CPU’s

How is x20 more debris that doesn’t fade away all without a performance hit not impressive? Not only do I think the effect looks better but there is more of it. Please show me a CPU game that looks that good.





“I fail to see the relevance of this, it doesnt matter what setting it is put on the game is more visually pleasing than ANY ppu game, That is exactly my point,”
As I said before with Crysis I was talking about PPU’s in general not the Ageia PPU and that Crysis shows that PPU’s are needed. If Crysis fails to run high end physic with the CPU that shows CPU’s are not powerful enough. With Crysis I wasnt talking about Ageia's PPU. So current PPU games dont matter.




“This is exactly the point, the difference is so negligble its not even an issue”
The difference between the PPU and no PPU is reported to be over 30fps. How is that negligible?




“i said the scripted effects look better than the PPU rendered ones”
You cannot do with scripts what you can do in warmonger. Almost every single wall can be blow up. Every stair way, every object pretty much. Instead of a script the hole is base don the size of the object that made the hole.

The hole point of Warmonger and the PPU is the physics are applied to almost everything. That’s not something you get in none PPU games. You will also find with scripts and the CPU there is far less objects on the screen.

 

[Darkwave]

Yeah I can't get the editor to do what I want it to do at all TBH, I even followed a tutorial but I think I'm just a complete editor newbie. If anyone out there with a quad-core who knows how to use the Crysis Sandbox2 editor to make a huge nuke blow up tons of jeeps and shacks then feel free.

 

[Chronictank]

“i commented on the aesthetics, the part that in reality matters the most.”
To me the PPU game has better aesthetics. How is the CPU game with less debris that fades away better aesthetics?

Because the actual effect looks visually better than in current ppu titles, which is why i put effect in bold

“I said nothing of the sort,”
Post 157 “The debris looked just like games today,”

Yes the same blocky poor graphics, not the way it falls apart

“to fraps some footage of good high end physics, you provided a video of a new game incoming, but even that is not really impressive it still looks the same blocky effects we have had for years.”
You keep saying it’s the same block effects for years. As I asked before prove it. Show me a game with the CPU that looks as good as Warmonger phsyics wise. The debre is good because A, There’s tons more of it, B, it doesn’t fade away like with CPU’s

How is x20 more debris that doesn’t fade away all without a performance hit not impressive? Not only do I think the effect looks better but there is more of it. Please show me a CPU game that looks that good.

A - there may be tons more but it looks rubbish
B - I doubt many people care if there is a blocky mess all over the ground

irst screenshot showing off the game
Half Life 2

Crysis

There may be more items, but they look just as poor

“This is exactly the point, the difference is so negligble its not even an issue”
The difference between the PPU and no PPU is reported to be over 30fps. How is that negligible?

I showed you 2 videos prooving that is tosh

“i said the scripted effects look better than the PPU rendered ones”
You cannot do with scripts what you can do in warmonger. Almost every single wall can be blow up. Every stair way, every object pretty much. Instead of a script the hole is base don the size of the object that made the hole.

The hole point of Warmonger and the PPU is the physics are applied to almost everything. That’s not something you get in none PPU games. You will also find with scripts and the CPU there is far less objects on the screen.

So what? if the end result is no better looking why does it matter

Anyhoo work to do, i'm sure someone will take the baton

 

[metalmackey]

Why do we have to tweak physics in Crysis? Surely the range (default) is what the developers intended it to be. Of course increasing the range will stress the CPU, but so would adding 100 more sound channels stress a soundcard or adding more trees the GFX card.

Sorry, I aint very good at explaining things so no worries if no one gets my point

 

[sosrandom]

Most likely they scaled down the nuke so PC's could handle it, and to balance it out.
Check out the origional

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLwh9S0jtak

 

[mrk]

Most likely they scaled down the nuke so PC's could handle it, and to balance it out.
Check out the origional

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLwh9S0jtak

*edit

I guess that map is very sparse though.

 

[Pottsey]

“I showed you 2 videos prooving that is tosh”
They proved me right but are not fair tests. Apart from the fact both videos didn’t have FPS counters and its different levels its clear the none PPU video is running a lot slower a number of times the FPS dropped below 10FPS. He also spent most of the time looking at the sky away from all the objects. Also he didn’t appear to have all the extra physics on. Look at 30 to 50 sec in he had slowdown just shooting into the sky from the tornado vortex sucking in the missile. The walkway didn’t break, near the end he shots other objects that break with a PPU. He also had no bots on making it easier for the CPU. In a real game the CPU has to handle other players and/or bots.

To show the PPU is negligible with no difference and to get me to believe it you need to run or find a benchmark with the same settings and same map with and without PPU with PPU drivers 7.11.13 or newer.. Unless the FPS are the same or almost the same I won’t believe you. If someone tells me how to run/setup a fair benchmark in UT3 I will do it my self.





“Because the actual effect looks visually better than in current ppu titles, which is why i put effect in bold”
They don’t look visually better. Look at the screenshots you posted the physics effects are worse and there are less bits flying around. The PPU looks better. Just compare Crysis to GRAW 2's physics effects.




“So what? if the end result is no better looking why does it matter”
The physics end result is better and looks better in the PP games. Having more debris looks better, having debris that doesn’t fade away looks better. When you blow up a wall having few parts looks worse. The debris looks just as good at cruises it not al black squares.

Look bricks are blocky by nature. What do you want all round bricks! The bits in Crysis are also blocky in fact more so in the screenshot you posted all the bits are blocky.

http://www.warmongergame.com/dynimg/w=800/media/screenshots/overview/Warmonger-overview-lrg-0001.jpg
In warmonger the bricks are a mix of round edges and flat edges. The edge on the rubble fits into the wall. Thats not worse tehn Crysis its better. Look at your Crysis screenshot all flat edges. Where are the round ednges like in Warmonger.





“There may be more items, but they look just as poor”
The items look just as poor as Crysis only there are x20 more of them in PPU games making it look better overall. When you though someone though a wall there should be more then a few bits of bricks.




“Why do we have to tweak physics in Crysis? Surely the range (default) is what the developers intended it to be.”
People are using Crysis as a reason why PPU’s are not needed. But if Crysis by default has a low physics and fails when high physics are used. Then its not profe that PPU ares are not needed. You don’t have to tweak the physics but the physics are bad if you don’t. All I am saying is if everyone had a PPU doesn’t have to be Ageia’s PPU then a game like Crysis could have high physics all over on by default. The nuke would be a real nuke that blows down buildings and has a large blast area., if we all had PPU's.




“So what? if the end result is no better looking why does it matter”
The end result is better. Want to block a passage? Blow up the ceiling and let the rubble fall down knowing that’s its not doing fade away in 10 seconds. You can run up the stairs think “ this is a good sniper point” then take out the stairs behind you. Need to retreat but no exit, blow a hole in any wall or floor. Want to use a missile launcher indoors? Think again as our goind blow walls out and perhaps bring the building down.

 

[Darkwave]

People are using Crysis as a reason why PPU’s are not needed. But if Crysis by default has a low physics and fails when high physics are used. Then its not profe that PPU ares are not needed.

I think what you're not realising is that people actually like the amount of physics in Crysis, and the "level" of them. The effects are nice and actually do make a big difference to gameplay, which I'm afraid to say a bit of moving cloth and running water do not.

• When a jeep is coming toward you in Crysis you can shoot out a tire and the jeep will either spin out or lose control entirely and do barrel rolls, depending on its speed.
  
  
• When you throw an enemy at a wooden wall in Crysis, the impact will not only leave a hole in the wall that enemies can use as cover, but will also leave pieces of wood on the floor that you can pick up and throw at them with different amounts of force depending on which suit mod you use.
  
  
• When enemies are looking for you in a forest in Crysis, you can knock or shoot down trees to use as cover, or to block their path and actually make them go where you want to, or you can even pick up the pieces of tree and chuck them at the enemies.

Things like that make a big difference to actual gameplay, and you don't need a PPU for it.

 

[mrk]

I think what you're not realising is that people actually like the amount of physics in Crysis, and the "level" of them. The effects are nice and actually do make a big difference to gameplay, which I'm afraid to say a bit of moving cloth and running water do not.

• When a jeep is coming toward you in Crysis you can shoot out a tire and the jeep will either spin out or lose control entirely and do barrel rolls, depending on its speed.
  
• When you throw an enemy at a wooden wall in Crysis, the impact will not only leave a hole in the wall that enemies can use as cover, but will also leave pieces of wood on the floor that you can pick up and throw at them with different amounts of force depending on which suit mod you use.
  
• When enemies are looking for you in a forest in Crysis, you can knock or shoot down trees to use as cover, or to block their path and actually make them go where you want to, or you can even pick up the pieces of tree and chuck them at the enemies.

Things like that make a big difference to actual gameplay, and you don't need a PPU for it.

Very true, Crysis does so much as it is with Physics, to note, every single palm tree is using physics, when you bump into a large plant each large leaf moves where you touch it, it also moves when you shoot it.

When you shoot a tree down it's computing the physics for that tree falling down as well as all the branches on it whilst maintaining real time physics for the surrounding foliage filled land, there is NO CPU slowdown whilst all this is happening, what other "PhysX" powered game does this? No other game does this, period and to imply that PhysX would make it faster because a damn nuke wiped out the whole scene and made the fps crawl is blasphemy.


To compare, UT3 has PhysX support yet without a PhysX card I have not seen a single instance of any destruction of scenery or scene interaction and the ones implemented with PhysX are on special maps that only PhysX players can play on.

Heh.

 

[Darkwave]

No other game does this, period and to imply that PhysX would make it faster because a damn nuke wiped out the whole scene and made the fps crawl is blasphemy.

I think we've just hit the exact reason that the PPU hasn't taken off.

Pottsey himself can only really cite exactly one example of an effect in Crysis that might* benefit from the hardware, the rest is done just fine on the CPU with practically no stress on it.

*Keyword: Might, because we don't really know for sure until someone tests it.

 

[HangTime]

Apparently AMD are considering buying AGEIA: http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601680/amd-considers-buying-ageia/page1.html

 

[Darkwave]

Apparently AMD are considering buying AGEIA: http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601680/amd-considers-buying-ageia/page1.html

Aye there's a thread on it here. I think AMD are trying to go bankrupt at the moment.

 

[Chronictank]

To show the PPU is negligible with no difference and to get me to believe it you need to run or find a benchmark with the same settings and same map with and without PPU with PPU drivers 7.11.13 or newer.. Unless the FPS are the same or almost the same I won’t believe you. If someone tells me how to run/setup a fair benchmark in UT3 I will do it my self.

Fraps benchmark tool, it provides a log like this:
Frames Time (ms) Min Max Avg
3206 60000 33 62 53.433

However this has already been done on the link oyu posted wasnt it?

“Because the actual effect looks visually better than in current ppu titles, which is why i put effect in bold”
They don’t look visually better. Look at the screenshots you posted the physics effects are worse and there are less bits flying around. The PPU looks better. Just compare Crysis to GRAW 2's physics effects.

Matter of opinion, i thought it looked ***** in the video it posted
The cloth didnt react naturally, the explosions were poor (instead of bits flying it gets damaged then suddenly explode), etc..etc..
It may not be 100% accurate but it looks a hell of a lot better in crysis, you can argue semantics all you like but its the final effect that matters at the end of the day in which case warmonger is nothing special

“So what? if the end result is no better looking why does it matter”
The physics end result is better and looks better in the PP games. Having more debris looks better, having debris that doesn’t fade away looks better. When you blow up a wall having few parts looks worse. The debris looks just as good at cruises it not al black squares.

Look bricks are blocky by nature. What do you want all round bricks! The bits in Crysis are also blocky in fact more so in the screenshot you posted all the bits are blocky.

I expected textured bricks, after all if there is a ppu taking away the work this should be possible and would be something beyong what current Havok based titles can do, this detracting to the fact in that video the effect wasnt realistic at all

“There may be more items, but they look just as poor”
The items look just as poor as Crysis only there are x20 more of them in PPU games making it look better overall. When you though someone though a wall there should be more then a few bits of bricks.

It doesnt in my opinion at all, the "low physics" in crysis as a end effect look far better overall than the "high physics" in warmonger

 

[JamesU2005]

Might have to get me one of these at a low price.

 

[Marc Fraser]

I expected textured bricks, after all if there is a ppu taking away the work this should be possible and would be something beyong what current Havok based titles can do, this detracting to the fact in that video the effect wasnt realistic at all

Whether you are using a PPU or the CPU to calculate physics makes no difference to whether the bricks are textured or not. Neither the PPU or the CPU have anything to do with the texture on the brick. This is handled by the graphics card.

From a physics perspective the Warmonger game does look pretty good in the fact that it looks like you have a fully destructable environment. The graphics are not that great but that has absolutley nothing to do with the PPU.

When you are trying to compare physics in a game (unless you are comparing purely effect based physics) you need to forget about which one has the nicest graphics as that is not what physics is about.

 

[Chronictank]

Whether you are using a PPU or the CPU to calculate physics makes no difference to whether the bricks are textured or not. Neither the PPU or the CPU have anything to do with the texture on the brick. This is handled by the graphics card.

From a physics perspective the Warmonger game does look pretty good in the fact that it looks like you have a fully destructable environment. The graphics are not that great but that has absolutley nothing to do with the PPU.

When you are trying to compare physics in a game (unless you are comparing purely effect based physics) you need to forget about which one has the nicest graphics as that is not what physics is about.

He is trying to argue it looks aesthetically better, in which case the graphics are very relevant. As i said before if you had the best physics engine in the world and the result looked pants then its pretty pointless is it not?
This again ignoring the fact that the effects in that video didnt even look realistic, including the cloth

 

[metalmackey]

If the PPU was THAT good wouldn't more developers want to use it? Agiea would sell loads if most games used it, but they don'.t. Maybe Pottsey and Agiea should try convincing more game develops to use it, then we might have to buy 1. I mean UT3 uses it but how many other Unreal Engine 3 games will?