Merry Xmas Pottsey

[MystaEB]

“That's funny, considering I'm running it on high phsyics on a dual core CPU and it doesn't hurt my framerate at all. In fact, dropping my my physics setting to low from high yields no performance boost, proving that my CPU is coping just fine.”
That’s because on high it’s still got low end physics. Tweak the physics so it’s on high and they tell me you have a high framerate. Get the nuke increase the physics to high so it affects a large area then watch your CPU struggle big time. Your PC will turn into a slideshow. Crysis is fine as long as you only use physics on a few objects at once. Use physics on lots of objects and the CPU cannot cope.

I guess you haven't played Crysis or something? I mean, have you? Without spoiling anything, there are plenty of areas where there are more physics effects going on on screen than I can actually take note of. It didn't hurt my framerate at all. I mean, seriously, where are you getting this information from? Throw a grenade or missile a house and everything inside goes flying, or just drive a truck through it. Don't talk such rot.

“I honestly couldn't give a flying crap about. £80 for tearing cloth? Fail.”
You’re missing the point increase the physics in Crysis and the FPS drops massively. Increase the physics in a PPU game and FPS go up as the CPU isn’t doing the work. Its also £50 not £80.

Alright, £50 for tearing cloth. Still fail.

And besides, increase what fricking physics? I have them on the highest setting in game! Adjusting the physics past what they were intended to be using commands and such is of course going to hurt framerate, you're tinkering with stuff that's not meant to be tinkered with. It's why it's, you know, not in the normal settings? I guess what you want is physics effects on every single little inanimate object in the game? If that is in fact what you want, then why are you a fan of PhsyX cards? I mean, from what I can tell reading articles about UT3 and PhsyX, all you basically get are ****** clumsy physics effects with a massive hit to performance.

The physics effects in Crysis are not "low", they look better than any Ageia tech demo I have seen so far, just because from a technical stand point they may not be as complex as what you can do with a PhysX card, but uh, who cares? They look better and provide me with more enjoyment. When I'm ready for blocky black squares and clumsy water and cloth effects in my video games I'll be ready to put a PhysX card in my PC. It's all about what it actually does to improve the visuals, not how "technically brilliant" the effects are. Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[MystaEB]

By the way, I'm really confused. Why can I run the Ageia tech demos without a PhysX card and still produce 60 FPS (Capped), when my friend with a PhysX card is running the same cloth and water demos and they look and perform the same? I'm missing something here, I think.

 

[Darkwave]

"Crysis is living proof that you don't need a PhysX card."
Crysis is perfect proof how you do need a PhysX card. Unless you like 1fps as your speed. High end physics in Crysis kill the CPU.

That's funny because I get pretty steady framerates in Crysis even when there's physics in play. It might not be up to my usual standard (60fps constant for a first-person shooter), but it's certainly not 1fps.

And, before you claim that the (for me) sub-standard framerates are due to physics, they're not. Crysis is pretty much entirely GPU limited, and the framerates I get are down to the RAM on my graphics card.

Edit: Never mind, just noticed someone said the exact same thing to you before me. I replied to your post without reading any further into the thread. Either way, he made my point for me quite nicely.

 

[lay-z-boy]

Language boyo, watch it.

No need to get so worked up it's only physics for petes sake

 

[Pottsey]

“I guess you haven't played Crysis or something? I mean, have you? Without spoiling anything, there are plenty of areas where there are more physics effects going on on screen than I can actually take note of.”
No I haven’t got around to playing it, but from watching the videos I have yet to see anything but basic stuff. The few videos I watched with high end physics where at sub 10fps. Can you show me one of these areas videos?





“Throw a grenade or missile a house and everything inside goes flying, or just drive a truck through it. Don't talk such rot.”
I was taking about areas larger then a house. Large areas like in Cellfactor. Speaking of driving a truck ever noticed how if you knock out 3 support pillars the building still stands? Real good physics there. Or has that been fixed in the full game? Last time I looked knocking out 3 support beams just left a building hovering there with 1 beam holding it up.





“I guess what you want is Physics effects on every single little inanimate object in the game?”
I was thinking more along the lines of set a nuke off and the building 5 meters away gets blown down. The tress blow down e.c.t in crisis a nuke will not blow down a building tress or anything outside a small blast area perhaps as small as 5 meters. Turn the physics up to effect more then a small area and the CPU dies. A blast wave from an explosion should not effect a tiny area.

Simple physics with a small mount of objects in a house size space is easy to do. There’s nothing impressive about that. Crisis fails to do more then that without turning into a slideshow. Hence Crisis does not have impressive physics. All the hard to physics effects are missing from Crysis. Could that be because the CPU is to weak to do them?

The physics in Cyrsis have an area of effect cap. So nothing outside a small area is effect by the physics. You can tweak the area up.





“my friend with a PhysX card is running the same cloth and water demos and they look and perform the same? I'm missing something here, I think.”
The demos are very simple screens made to show one 1 single effect with nothing else going on. Running those effects with other effects in a full game with everything else going on is something different.




“what you can do with a PhysX card, but uh, who cares? They look better and provide me with more enjoyment.”
Very funny concerning the physics effect in Crysis have been out in PPU games for years and look just as good as Crysis. They don’t look good in crisis they are more worse. Way worse.

How can a mare £50 not be worth it for a FPS increase in games like UT3?


“It's all about what it actually does to improve the visuals, not how "technically brilliant" the effects are. Quod erat demonstrandum.“
As far as I can see the PPU games have better physic visuals.

 

[J.D]

Im still making my mind up. But if the physx actually looked good and was more commen id buy them. If you awtch the videos he showed in the links i just dont really think they are special. The liquid looks very bad and the textures on the liquid dont look good either. The fire looks similar to the liquid, which just looks weird.

Also your not really going to buy a lachesis are you? The death adder is great ive got one. What is the difference between taht and a lachesis? I would image its only the shape as you cant notice a difference from 1000dpi to 4000dpi unless your an alien with super sensitive relexs on your fingers....



Omg a 50 quid pc wonder if it will run crysis even on low!

o :EDIT: skim read haha jk lol.

Hmmm, I'll need to check the videos and see what it's about. I'd just buy one and play the game without it first then try it with it and if it made a decent impression on me then I'd most likely keep it. If not then it would get sold on.

The only reason I'm thinking about the Lachesis is that I'm a flick/reaction gamer. The palm based, right handed shape of the Death adder is awkward for gripping with my pinkie and thumb compared to my Copperhead (horrible laser skipping). The copperhead was symmetrical with rubber ridges that were perfect for how I play but the skipping put me off. Now the DeathAdder has never skipped once but the right handed shape is awkward for how I'd like the mouse to sit in between my fingers. I can still score as good with the DeathAdder, sometimes even better with no skipping happening but the Lachesis at least is symmetrical but I'm worried if this laser will skip too?. The only other choice to get the Copperheads shape combined with the 3G sensor is the new Diamondback3G and if I hear of this Lachesis skipping then it looks like it's going to be the Diamondback.

£50 PC skim reading lol .

 

[Pottsey]

“And, before you claim that the (for me) sub-standard framerates are due to physics, they're not. Crysis is pretty much entirely GPU limited, and the framerates I get are down to the RAM. on my graphics card.”
Leave physics on a small area and you get decent FPS. Turn physics up to effect a large area and FPS drops. How is physics and the CPU being to weak not the cause? You go from 30fps down to sub 5fps if the physics area is increased beyound a small area. Exmple the nuke.

 

[Darkwave]

Pottsey you keep going on about how the physics effects in non-PPU games are "not big enough" and how the tornado in Alan Wake "wasn't big enough and didn't send enough stuff flying" but come on... One of the games you constantly go on about in regards to the PPU is City Of Heroes, and I'm afraid to tell you that I've seen the PPU in action in that game. Sending a few newspaper pages swirling around in a little tornado (not even a tornado really just air whooshing in a circular pattern) is exactly the same kind of effect you're criticising.

“And, before you claim that the (for me) sub-standard framerates are due to physics, they're not. Crysis is pretty much entirely GPU limited, and the framerates I get are down to the RAM. on my graphics card.”
Leave physics on a small area and you get decent FPS. Turn physics up to effect a large area and FPS drops. How is physics and the CPU being to weak not the cause? You go from 30fps down to sub 5fps if the physics area is increased beyound a small area. Exmple the nuke.

I've only seen a nuke go off in multiplayer, but it surely as hell didn't drop to 5fps or I would've gone mad.

I think you need to actually get round to playing the game before you spout all these framerates as fact.

 

[Pottsey]

“One of the games you constantly go on about in regards to the PPU is City Of Heroes, and I'm afraid to tell you that I've seen the PPU in action in that game. Sending a few newspaper pages swirling around in a little tornado (not even a tornado really just air whooshing in a circular pattern) is exactly the same kind of effect you're criticising.“
The point is increase the physics to that level with the CPU and your FPS drop over default physics. Plug in a PPU and the FPS increase 30% and you get those extra physics.

How is that bad again? For £50 I will take the 30% increase in FPS and extra physics effects and let my CPU work on other stuff.

EDIT:
“I've only seen a nuke go off in multiplayer, but it surely as hell didn't drop to 5fps or I would've gone mad.”
Perhaps I wasn’t clear, by default the nuke has an extremely small blast area. It’s about 5 or 10 meters. Anything outside that tiny blast area has no physics effect applied. Turn the blast area up and make it effect buildings and tress then the FPS drop down to 5.

I fail to see how its impressive when on default the physics are limited to a small area I guess 5 meters and the physics don’t effect tress or buildings. People are saying Crysis is an example of how we don’t need a PPU. Crysis cannot handle lots of physics out side a small area. Surly that’s an example of how we need a PPU. As soon as lots of physics happen Crysis fails.

 

[Darkwave]

The point is increase the physics to that level with the CPU and your FPS drop over default physics. Plug in a PPU and the FPS increase 30% and you get those extra physics.

I'm asking why you are constantly talking about the effects in non-PPU games as if they're not good enough for a PPU anyway, despite my example of at least one PPU game where the effects are just rubbish.

How is that bad again? For £50 I will take the 30% increase in FPS and let my CPU work on other stuff over loseing 40 to 50% FPS with a CPU compared to a PPU.

Looks like they're still £88.11 to me, do you live in the future?

Perhaps I wasn’t clear, by default the nuke has an extremely small blast area. It’s about 5 or 10 meters. Anything outside that tiny blast area has no physics effect applied. Turn the blast area up and make it effect buildings and tress then the FPS drop down to 5.

I fail to see how its impressive when on default the physics are limited to a small area I guess 5 meters and the physics don’t effect tress or buildings.

So basically you're saying again that a non-PPU effect is crap and too small because the CPU isn't good enough... How do you feel about the crap physics effects in City Of Heroes then? I've seen them with my own two eyes, and they're hardly heart-stopping.

Also, have you not considered that the nuke effect in Crysis might not be immense due to the already immense demands on the GPU? Like I said, Crysis is pretty much entirely GPU-limited so they can't afford to go mad.

 

[Pottsey]

“Looks like they're still £88.11 to me, do you live in the future?”
It’s against the rules to post other shops. Ageia announced a price drop. The price drop hasn’t hit this shop yet but it has hit others. Can we link to US shops as they are not directly cooperating is that against the rules?




“How do you feel about the crap physics effects in City Of Heroes then? I've seen them with my own two eyes, and they're hardly heart-stopping.”
There are different ways to use the PPU. Yes COH does have low end physics the point is even with low end physics the PPU is boosting FPS, just like it does in other games like GRAW 2 or UT 3. Not all PPU games are about adding new physics some are about using the PPU to boost FPS.

If its crap phsyics with the CPU or the same phsyics with the PPU only a lot faster I choose the PPU.





“I'm asking why you are constantly talking about the effects in non-PPU games as if they're not good enough for a PPU anyway, despite my example of at least one PPU game where the effects are just rubbish.”
I didn’t say the effects are not good enough for the PPU. I said the effects are proving that a PPU is needed as the effects cripple a CPU when turned to high. By default Crisis has low end physics. Nothing impressive. Once you turn the physics to impressive levels the CPU fails. Proving that the CPU is to weak and PPU’s are needed. Forgot about Ageia for a minuet this is about PPU and CPU’s in general. If we all had a high end PPU (doesn’t have to be Ageia) then Crisis high end physics would be an in game option everyone could turn on. Thats why I think its best if we all get PPU's and dont let the CPU take over. I am not saying Ageia is the best way forward. Only that I think PPU's are the way forward. Perhaps build PPU's into the CPU, GPU or motherboard. Once eveyone has a PPU game physics can be pushed forward far beyound what the CPU can do.




“Also, have you not considered that the nuke effect in Crysis might not be immense due to the already immense demands on the GPU? Like I said, Crysis is pretty much entirely GPU-limited so they can't afford to go mad.“
Physics are run by the CPU the problems doesn’t appear till you turn the physics blast area up. So it’s the CPU that’s the problem in this one case. I dont see how the GPU could cuase the problem.

 

[Nymins]

“Looks like they're still £88.11 to me, do you live in the future?”
It’s against the rules to post other shops. Ageia announced a price drop. The price drop hasn’t hit this shop yet but it has hit others. Can we link to US shops as they are not directly cooperating is that against the rules?

US shops don't matter cause they don't give a good representation of the UK price. If its $100, then its not automatically £50 cause thats without tax and other necessary payments. Around £80 is what the UK price will be.

Physics are run by the CPU the problems doesn’t appear till you turn the physics blast area up. So it’s the CPU that’s the problem in this one case. I dont see how the GPU could cuase the problem.

So your saying that if Crysis had stickmen style graphics and completely bland, flat textures with no colour or depth that it would still run like a slide-show if the blast area was increased? Completely wrong. Crysis is graphically demanding. Thats the only reason that the physics have been made the way they are.

 

[sosrandom]

The cloth stuff, is that if you put 50 bullets into a thin matress cover is wouldnt fall to pieces under its own weight.
For me the cloth effects are totally wrong, cloth in real life is interwoven not millions of balls glued weakly together under the effect of gravity.

When you shoot a car in CoD4 ok so the explosion is scripted but it looks good Perfect Physics > Scripted Explosions > Bad Phisics, and the scripted physics use a LOT less resources.

A general gripe here not just PPU related, rocket laucher explosions seem to go streight through the car and walls while the car/wall remains intact, also the explosion effect (ball of fire) happens before the object is destroyed giving the impression that theres 2 seperate explosions on thats a magic fireball that goes through everything, then one that does the damage.

Gravity!!! I most games that do physics like this they seem to have no prospect of weight, those concreet antitank things wouldnt explode into 7 large pieces and fly slowly up and down like some indestructible helium balloons.
The only time ive seen this done properly was the Crysis Pre-Realease chaingun jungle sceen, like the one from Preditor.

At 2:09 theres a nice looking bit, but the bits before that with the Assult rifle/machine gun, all the wall seem to fall appart more like there being bulldozed rather than shot at, what are these made of bullet proof 4'x4' plasterboard?

I think thats about it for now, looks like a good game but unless is plays well in multiplayer with destruction it wont be that appealing.

edit:
Crysis in my oppion sucks for what it is, mainly because its not what was advertised but also because its GPU limited doesnt have good SLI support and isnt multi threaded but rather optimised for dual core.

and Pottsey you said that the huts still standup with 1/2 support but similar things happen in the vid you posted, concrets sections of wall dangling from a tiny connection above, builings supported by tiny peices, the walls stuck on by thin metalwork.

I think the idea of the PhyisX card is a good one, I just like to see it have some more meaning. If it improved fps in games like Bioshock, CoD4 and Crysis then people would love it, expecially for just £50, although they probably wouldnt have dropped the price.
The problem with crysis tho is that youd need 2 8800GT's properly working in SLI and youd probably still be limited by the GPU, the main thing at the moment slowing games down are the resolutions not the physics and this give SLI a BIG advantage.

 

[Darkwave]

It’s against the rules to post other shops. Ageia announced a price drop. The price drop hasn’t hit this shop yet but it has hit others. Can we link to US shops as they are not directly cooperating is that against the rules?

You are allowed to link to American etailers as long as they don't ship internationally, for example Newegg. However, if you're going to pull that ace out of your sleeve then make sure you add on 17.5% (American sites don't add tax due to it being different in every state) plus the margin that's added on by importing the product to the UK. I'm sure Gibbo would gladly provide an accurate estimate but my bet would be about £70 or higher.

Physics are run by the CPU the problems doesn’t appear till you turn the physics blast area up. So it’s the CPU that’s the problem in this one case. I dont see how the GPU could cuase the problem.

You don't see how the GPU could be the problem in the most graphically demanding game ever made, especially when it's rendering a nuclear explosion made up almost entirely of volumetric particles and intensive shading?

I am simply gobsmacked right now, honestly.



I did ignore two of your paragraphs, and I apologise, but we would've ended up just going around in circles if I posted what I was going to say reply to them so it's best to agree to disagree there.

 

[Pottsey]

“You don't see how the GPU could be the problem in the most graphically demanding game ever made, especially when it's rendering a nuclear explosion made up almost entirely of volumetric particles and intensive shading? I am simply gobsmacked right now, honestly.”
What’s to be gobsmacked about? It looks to me like your blaming the GPU when you know its really the CPU at fault proving we need PPU’s. No I cannot see how the GPU can be the problem.

There is no difference between the way the Nuke looks between low or high physics. The GPU doesn’t render anything extra so how can the GPU be at fault for the low FPS?

The GPU doesn’t even need to render the stuff you cannot see that’s behind you. Yet if the nuke goes off behind you there is a massive FPS difference between default and high physics. It’s clear it’s the physics of moving objects that cause the problem. (by high I mean edit the nuke so the blast wave is bigger then a house and works on buildings and trees)

As for the price lets just wait a few more days I am sure the new announce price will filter down this shop.

 

[Chronictank]

“You don't see how the GPU could be the problem in the most graphically demanding game ever made, especially when it's rendering a nuclear explosion made up almost entirely of volumetric particles and intensive shading? I am simply gobsmacked right now, honestly.”
What’s to be gobsmacked about? It looks to me like your blaming the GPU when you know its really the CPU at fault proving we need PPU’s. No I cannot see how the GPU can be the problem.

There is no difference between the way the Nuke looks between low or high physics. The GPU doesn’t render anything extra so how can the GPU be at fault for the low FPS?

The GPU doesn’t even need to render the stuff you cannot see that’s behind you. Yet if the nuke goes off behind you there is a massive FPS difference between default and high physics. It’s clear it’s the physics of moving objects that cause the problem. (by high I mean edit the nuke so the blast wave is bigger then a house and works on buildings and trees)

As for the price lets just wait a few more days I am sure the new announce price will filter down this shop.

As said before, thats all well and good but i have yet to see a "high physics" game which looks as good as the current titles who dont use them,
THAT is the issue, even the link you posted looks pretty poor for the reasons previously highlighted, a scripted event (regardless of not being high physics) looks far better.
So at presant physics cards are not worth buying because any games using them do not look particularly impressive, now you can blame that on poor development or whatever but it doesnt change the fact that they do indeed look worse than their current competitors.
As for the FPS debate, the current gen games run fine on most high end hardware so its not really a compelling argument for a physics card. Crysis is VERY obviously gpu limited as if you turn the resolutions down the performance improves, if it was the CPU being the bottleneck this performance would not improve.
Everything maxed so my game was crawling, so if your theory was correct the CPU should be getting hammered, however

Now normally you make good arguments backed up with facts, im afraid you are off the mark when we are discussing crysis.

I'm sure the CPU would get hammered if everything on the screen was affected, but i would rather they didnt and have a good looking game than doing it and having a crappy looking game (beta or no, unless there is a significant improvement to the game you posted that doesnt look particularly impressive)

 

[Darkwave]

What’s to be gobsmacked about? It looks to me like your blaming the GPU when you know its really the CPU at fault proving we need PPU’s. No I cannot see how the GPU can be the problem.

Your arguments are getting terrible lately Pottsey, you used to be really on the ball when people argued against you. You're now telling me, in plain language, that you can somehow see into my mind and know for a fact that I "know" it's the CPU's fault but just won't admit it?

Sorry to tell you this Pottsey but your mind probe isn't working right, because that's not what I am thinking at all. Crysis is the most graphically demanding ever made at the time of this post, it's completely GPU limited. So why would I think it's all down to the CPU?

There is no difference between the way the Nuke looks between low or high physics. The GPU doesn’t render anything extra so how can the GPU be at fault for the low FPS?

You've said already that you've not even played the game, so I would like to know where you got this detailed analysis of all the different settings and framerates on various hardware configurations.

I already warned you once about pulling framerates from thin-air.

The GPU doesn’t even need to render the stuff you cannot see that’s behind you. Yet if the nuke goes off behind you there is a massive FPS difference between default and high physics. It’s clear it’s the physics of moving objects that cause the problem. (by high I mean edit the nuke so the blast wave is bigger then a house and works on buildings and trees)

Like I've said, you've not even played the game. How do you know all these technical details about the Crysis nukes and how they interact with their environment, never mind if all the load is on the GPU, CPU, or even on the RAM.

As for the price lets just wait a few more days I am sure the new announce price will filter down this shop.

I will post a picture of me eating my hat if it comes out at £50. That's a promise.

Moneyshot.

I think that makes my point for me all too well, thanks for posting it Chronictank.

 

[J.D]

“You don't see how the GPU could be the problem in the most graphically demanding game ever made, especially when it's rendering a nuclear explosion made up almost entirely of volumetric particles and intensive shading? I am simply gobsmacked right now, honestly.”
What’s to be gobsmacked about? It looks to me like your blaming the GPU when you know its really the CPU at fault proving we need PPU’s. No I cannot see how the GPU can be the problem.

There is no difference between the way the Nuke looks between low or high physics. The GPU doesn’t render anything extra so how can the GPU be at fault for the low FPS?

The GPU doesn’t even need to render the stuff you cannot see that’s behind you. Yet if the nuke goes off behind you there is a massive FPS difference between default and high physics. It’s clear it’s the physics of moving objects that cause the problem. (by high I mean edit the nuke so the blast wave is bigger then a house and works on buildings and trees)

There must be someone with a PPU and Crysis on these boards?. Surely? . This needs tested.

So Pottsey. Are you trying to say that having a PPU would make Crysis a lot more playable on PC's and that it's down to physics the reason why it's not running as good as expected?.

I will post a picture of me eating my hat if it comes out at £50. That's a promise.

Sorry but we'll need a video lol . Pics are too questionable .

 

[Darkwave]

There must be someone with a PPU and Crysis on these boards?. Surely? . This needs tested.

So Pottsey. Are you trying to say that having a PPU would make Crysis a lot more playable on PC's and that it's down to physics the reason why it's not running as good as expected?.

I don't think he's trying to say that Crysis supports PPUs, that would be nuts.

He's trying to say that Crysis runs so slow, particularly when a lot of physics is going on, because of the CPU. Nothing to do with the game being super GPU-limited apparently.

 

[mrk]

As said before, thats all well and good but i have yet to see a "high physics" game which looks as good as the current titles who dont use them,
THAT is the issue, even the link you posted looks pretty poor for the reasons previously highlighted, a scripted event (regardless of not being high physics) looks far better.
So at presant physics cards are not worth buying because any games using them do not look particularly impressive, now you can blame that on poor development or whatever but it doesnt change the fact that they do indeed look worse than their current competitors.
As for the FPS debate, the current gen games run fine on most high end hardware so its not really a compelling argument for a physics card. Crysis is VERY obviously gpu limited as if you turn the resolutions down the performance improves, if it was the CPU being the bottleneck this performance would not improve.
Everything maxed so my game was crawling, so if your theory was correct the CPU should be getting hammered, however

Now normally you make good arguments backed up with facts, im afraid you are off the mark when we are discussing crysis.

I'm sure the CPU would get hammered if everything on the screen was affected, but i would rather they didnt and have a good looking game than doing it and having a crappy looking game (beta or no, unless there is a significant improvement to the game you posted that doesnt look particularly impressive)

Crysis is heavily GPU limited at this time, the devs and nvidia have acknowledge an issue with performance on high end gfx cards (8800GT and up) since the game autosets the quality to "very high" when you choose the optimise button. A patch and new drivers to fix this issue are due within days now.

Even if you have the fastest quad core cpu you will still get slowdowns where the gpu is not being fully utilised - in this case Crysis, we see very little usage of multiple cores (maybe 30-50% max for 2 cores) but when the gpu is utilised the cpu can also be utilised as it's not idling around waiting.

Crytek dev even said that it doesn't matter what speed a multicore cpu is running at, it's down to efficiency and number of cores, more cores = better but of course the gpu must be also efficient and match the cpu nicely - this doesn't happen in Crysis right now due to the performance issue being resolved by them and nvidia.

The physics in Crysis also has zero effect on fps or performance, the game runs the same when blowing up a house as it does not blowing up a house and cpu usage does not change either on either of my 4 cores, it remains more or less the same throughout the whole game until you enterthe snow level where it drops a few fps (incidently that level has little to no physics usage too...LOL, it's just all graphics rendered snow with no bearing on physics)