#MeToo - is it just different for men and women?

[Dirk Diggler]

It's not an opinion, I feel like you’re letting emotion get in the way of logic here. The accused is not perpetually guilty any more than the accuser is perpetually lying.

Courts find people guilty or not guilty based on an established level of probability, not guilty or innocent based on 100% certainty.

The court is the only means for a victim to prove wrongdoing or an accused to prove innocence. It is predominantly in sexual assault cases that an accused is deemed to have gotten off with it, or a victim not been believed.

We are all happy to believe that Gary Glitter did it, because the court found him guilty. On the other hand, Michael Barrymore got away with it. You can now add people like Spacey to the ever growing list of people who are now guilty in the absence of a trial.

I believe that only the justice system finds guilty or not guilty, and there should be no overhanging perceived guilt afterwards. It destroys people, and it's another reason why anoninimity should be guaranteed for all.

Again, to revisit your original statement; implying that a lack of prosecution is bad because it deters others from coming forward is just warped logic. Innocent people have a right to defend themselves, and they have a right to a quality of life and reputation when they have fought to clear their name.

 

[One More Solo]

I feel like your conflating two separate points here. I said victims feel unable to come forward because they won’t be believed. Separately there is the point that accusers can’t be assumed to be lying just because a conviction doesn’t happen, and likewise for the accused. I never said victims don’t come forward because not enough people get convicted.

You also act as if the defendants are the only people that suffer at the hands of the law. How do you think it feels for a victim when the courts don’t believe them? Miscarriages of justice happen both ways and anonymity is worthless.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I never said victims don’t come forward because not enough people get convicted.

I've quoted this section because I want to focus on the issue that concerns me. I took your "victim not being believed" statement to mean just that, so if it doesn't then please clarify if you could.

There's a common belief that a low conviction rate deters people coming forward, and as I said previously I believe this is why police are practically framing people by withholding evidence. That's why I posted the three links earlier.

To summarise, the police are more interested in getting their statistics in place in terms of conviction rate, and that's at the detriment of people who are innocent. This is driven by the belief that low conviction rates are proportional to people not coming forward to report crimes... i.e victims feeling that they won't be believed.

Could low conviction rates be a direct result of false accusations? Is it out of the question? If so, where's the evidence to back that up?

 

[One More Solo]

Conviction rates for rapes aren't low. Cases which reach the courts result in convictions in 58% of cases vs 57% of other crimes, so within the margin of error. Hysteria about false accusations leading to low conviction rates is at best misguided.

The problem is earlier down the chain where crimes are not reported or not investigated due to a perceived lack of evidence or lack of willingness. Outside of the criminal justice system, there is the issue of victims not being believed by family or friends (see the victim in the Nassar case whose own father backed Nassar over her for years).

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Some developments on the issue. The police have apparently had an awful appetite for conviction, to the point where every ongoing case is to be reviewed to ensure a fair trial for the accused: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42841346

 

[Angilion]

Some developments on the issue. The police have apparently had an awful appetite for conviction, to the point where every ongoing case is to be reviewed to ensure a fair trial for the accused: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42841346

Does anyone think this unfunded, unspecified "review" will make any difference to anything other than deflecting criticism of a system that encourages false convictions to increase the conviction rate?

 

[Caracus2k]

Some developments on the issue. The police have apparently had an awful appetite for conviction, to the point where every ongoing case is to be reviewed to ensure a fair trial for the accused: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42841346

The police (And the CPS) have been under considerable pressure from certain groups over their perceived failures to up the conviction rate......... its not been largely an internally driven change

One of the main problems here is dealing with the now potentially terabytes worth of potential of digital information that may be 'relevant' to a criminal case like a rape. Phones in particular offer a previously un paralleled level of information about a person that was simply just not available to be inspected by the criminal justice system in the past in a case going to trial

 

[FoxEye]

The reality is that the number of false accusations that lead to convinctions pale into insignificance compared to the number of crimes that go unreported or uninvestigated.

"Better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned."

I think that's very true.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Does anyone think this unfunded, unspecified "review" will make any difference to anything other than deflecting criticism of a system that encourages false convictions to increase the conviction rate?

To quote one example:

...in December, the trial of Liam Allan, who faced 12 counts of rape and sexual assault, was dropped when it emerged evidence on a computer disc - which police had looked through - showed messages from the alleged victim pestering him for "casual sex".

If that's indicative of the police approach, then what chance does an innocent man have? We're now in a culture where the mere point of a finger is enough. Are these innocent people somehow seen as collateral damage by the Police?

It's hard to reach a verdict of guilty when the "victim" has been sending the alleged perpetrator texts demanding booty calls, so Plod simply decides to ignore/hide the evidence.

Of course, cases like that of Chad Evans and the media hysteria probably don't help matters. Amazing to think that in that case the lady in question has never actually accused him of rape, but he spent two years in jail regardless before being aquitted upon appeal.

 

[VincentHanna]

Basically for 30+ you have to fulfill two of the three sixes.

6 pack
6 figure salary
6 feet

My girlfriend doesn't care or even like abs, and she's a size 8-10.

I'm taller than her, but at 5 10' i'm average height.

And when we met (7 years ago) I wasn't earning loads. I am earning more now though.

 

[V F]

My girlfriend doesn't care or even like abs, and she's a size 8-10.

I'm taller than her, but at 5 10' i'm average height.

And when we met (7 years ago) I wasn't earning loads. I am earning more now though.

Whatduheck?

 

[Efour]

Lol that is best mispost in a long time

 

[Nasher]

Usually just a 6 figure salary is enough

 

[solado]

My biggest problem with this #MeToo movement is how bad it's being hijacked by SJW types pushing an agenda on it and now people can be tarnished without fair trial.

The mentality behind these movements have changed from actually trying to do good, to a mob mentality. I can see why males in some companies are refusing to have meetings with female employees individually without some form of mediation or chaperone.

 

[Nasher]

My biggest problem with this #MeToo movement is how bad it's being hijacked by SJW types pushing an agenda on it and now people can be tarnished without fair trial.

The mentality behind these movements have changed from actually trying to do good, to a mob mentality. I can see why males in some companies are refusing to have meetings with female employees individually without some form of mediation or chaperone.

I'd probably do the same if it wasn't a women I regularly work with and know quite well. Or there would have to be CCTV in the room. The other thing is might end up going a step further and male employers quietly stop hiring women, because they don't want the risk.

As well as women wanting to protect themselves against pervs, we now have men needing to protect themselves against false accusations (of which they are presumed to be guilty without evidence, which is scary) by spiteful women.

 

[Freddie1980]

As well as women wanting to protect themselves against pervs, we now have men needing to protect themselves against false accusations (of which they are presumed to be guilty without evidence, which is scary) by spiteful women.

It wouldn't be the first time, years ago Red Dwarf and Coronation Street actor Craig Charles was accused of rape but he was cleared after his QC basically unraveled the victims story as basically a pack lies. It's amazing that some people are so naive, greedy and stupid that they would knowingly lie and keep up that pretense all the way through to a courtroom trail.

 

[Nasher]

Yep and there seems to be no punishment for it either.

 

[aardvark]

It wouldn't be the first time, years ago Red Dwarf and Coronation Street actor Craig Charles was accused of rape but he was cleared after his QC basically unraveled the victims story as basically a pack lies. It's amazing that some people are so naive, greedy and stupid that they would knowingly lie and keep up that pretense all the way through to a courtroom trail.

just shows how damaging accusations can be - i had no idea about the acquittal and still thought he was guilty.

 

[Delvis]

My arse got slapped at work the other day, I also get my arm groped/stroked as well, all of which I find rather uncomfortable. However I'd feel somewhat odd placing a proper complaint about it

 

[Avenged7Fold]

My arse got slapped at work the other day, I also get my arm groped/stroked as well, all of which I find rather uncomfortable. However I'd feel somewhat odd placing a proper complaint about it

Why is that?

I would hazard a guess that many women felt odd lodging a complaint back in the day simply because it would not be taken seriously, so they instead pretended it never happened. Some people in this thread are saying that it would have been better to complain about it at the time, as it may have helped other victims or changed people mindset/behavior.