Militant secularisation threat to religion, says Warsi

Danthus · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:04

Burnsy2023 said:
I agree, but you can't have a secular society when region is so ingrained into the process of government.

Is it really engrained or is it just a tradition that has never died?

Look at the amount of couples who go to church for a few weeks so they can get married in a church.

They aren't religious they just play the game to get a church wedding, the church doesn't care less because they get a nice littler earner.

Nitefly · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:04

kedge said:
But it's ok if someone says religion is bull yeah? but i can't say evolution is bull yeah?

To say that 'religion is bull' is an inflammatory statement and it's perfectly fair of you to criticise him for it, by all means do so.

However please keep such criticism within the realms of the topic, which is the mix of religion, politics and national identity. Evolution and creationism is an unnecessary, unwanted and overdone tangent.

Maybe you can counter him by saying what good you believe religion brings to society as a whole?

Burnsy2023 · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:04

kedge said:
But it's ok if someone says religion is bull yeah? but i can't say evolution is bull yeah?

But you've just accepted that micro-evolution has been observed?

anything I don't mind · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:06

bloodiedathame said:
As a non militant anti-religious person myself I must say you really aren't doing the argument any favours.

Maybe as someone who is anti-religious then you might actually want to have an opinion about it that you could share with us that would do the argument a favour? Unless you are one of those anti-religious who doesn't want to offend anyone, also known as a liberal fence sitter.

kedge · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:06

Burnsy2023 said:
Evolution does explain how organisms get more complex thoughl.

Well subjective i suppose, i see complex life in its basic form not basic life evolving into more complex life, the life form is already complex, and irreducibly complex.

SMed · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:07

kedge said:
Either way mate that is what science claims happened as a fact.

There is no consensus on how life on Earth began, so no science doesn't claim anything about it as fact. But for evolution, yes, it's as good as fact.

Also, there is no micro macro-evolution. Those are not scientific terms, they're used incorrectly by creationists. Perhaps you're thinking of speciation, which is observed all the time, not just in bacteria and drosophila.

EDIT: slight correction

Naffa · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:07

It was a painfully stupid article. I wonder if Warsi even realises that the only reason she, as a Muslim woman, is able to serve in cabinet is because of a plurality of religion, that can only flourish and prosper in a secular society?

And Jesus, who on Earth is claiming to deny the strong part Christianity has had in our history? Or trying to deny the overwhelming effect the King James Bible has had on our literature, history, society, etc?

Burnsy2023 · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:09

OldCoals said:
Is it really engrained or is it just a tradition that has never died?

Look at the amount of couples who go to church for a few weeks so they can get married in a church.

They aren't religious they just play the game to get a church wedding, the church doesn't care less because they get a nice littler earner.

Well, that is a good point. Although 72% of people (from the 2001 census) define themselves as Christian, there are no really solid statistics on how many are true believers and how many are what you suggest.

That said, I think that the process of government should be secular (like in the US) even if elected representatives choose policy that is very much religiously orientated, although I'd prefer if this wasn't the case as well.

Burnsy2023 · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:10

groen said:
Unless you are one of those anti-religious who doesn't want to offend anyone, also known as a liberal fence sitter.

It's not about not wanting to offend people, it's about having respect for people that have a different opinion to you; also known as common decency.

kedge · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:10

Burnsy2023 said:
But you've just accepted that micro-evolution has been observed?

We can't go there mate, dog variability is micro-evolution for example, but no one person has observed an ape evolving into a human being, no more or i'll end up getting banned or something, you can start a new topic on it if you really want to?.

Nitefly · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:11

Naffa said:
It was a painfully stupid article. I wonder if Warsi even realises that the only reason she, as a Muslim woman, is able to serve in cabinet is because of a plurality of religion, that can only flourish and prosper in a secular society?

I agree with your sentiment, but I think that she is advocating a middle ground. Just because we have a (oooh here comes the danger word!) multi-cultural society doesn't mean people should dampen their religious roots for fear of criticism.

anything I don't mind · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:11

Burnsy2023 said:
It's not about not wanting to offend people, it's about having respect for people that have a different opinion to you; also known as common decency.

I have respect for people and common decency but I do not offer that same respect to the religions of the world. They are worthless and work against the progression of mankind and have held back man for 1000s of years. Religions and their followers do not deserve respect for being religious. I respect them for being people like everyone else. I never said anything about wanting to offend people, way to twist my words like a religious fanatic.

RomanNose · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:12

kedge said:
We can't go there mate, dog variability is micro-evolution for example, but no one person has observed an ape evolving into a human being, no more or i'll end up getting banned or something, you can start a new topic on it if you really want to?.

Macro is just micro evolution over a long period of time.

kedge · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:13

Nitefly said:
Maybe you can counter him by saying what good you believe religion brings to society as a whole?

That is a good point, i believe if everyone lived by Bible Scripture many of the problems we are faced with on a daily basis today will be gone.

kedge · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:13

RomanNose said:
Macro is just micro evolution over a long period of time.

Start a new topic and i'll put you right.

Danthus · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:14

kedge said:
That is a good point, i believe if everyone lived by Bible Scripture many of the problems we are faced with on a daily basis today will be gone.

/Takes cover...........

RDM · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:14

Nitefly said:
I agree with your sentiment, but I think that she is advocating a middle ground. Just because we have a (oooh here comes the danger word!) multi-cultural society doesn't mean people should dampen their religious roots for fear of criticism.

But why should a person's religious beliefs be above criticism? We can criticise their political beliefs, we can criticise their moral beliefs, we can criticse pretty much anything we like. Why not religion?

spudbynight · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:14

I think Baroness Warsi was spot on.

kedge · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:16

groen said:
I have respect for people and common decency but I do not offer that same respect to the religions of the world. They are worthless and work against the progression of mankind and have held back man for 1000s of years.

Can you highlight some of this worthless progression please? and can you at least explain exactly what religious denomination you're talking about?.

Nitefly · 14 Feb 2012 at 10:17

RDM said:
But why should a person's religious beliefs be above criticism? We can criticise their political beliefs, we can criticise their moral beliefs, we can criticse pretty much anything we like. Why not religion?

They aren't above criticism. A religious person should be able to deal with criticism and criticism should be issued when due. That is not to say that people shouldn't have the confidence to express themselves in the first place.