Monaco Grand Prix 2011, Monte-Carlo - Race 6/19

[Slam62]

I don't know how you get that final conclusion. Why do you think the Red Bull is always much faster in qfy then than the race?

Why does that gap dissapear on full tanks?

Even at this track where the DRS was used a hell of a lot less where you could run it where you wanted RB had plenty in hand. So that kinda negates the discussion that RB's dominance was lost on the sunday because of less DRS use.

EBD, well I suppose it depends on how much fuel it uses extra compared to non use? Could they be slightly heavier in fuel to run it?

I personally just think they have built a great all round package and removing the EDB will hamper them but not enough to stop them winning races. They might just then win 9 instead of 12.

I still fancy Vettel to break MS's record this year. So far no one seems to know why the red bull has such an advantage on saturday.

obviously there is a possibility that I am completely wrong

however, it all adds up nicely, at the start of a race, the car is something like 140kg heavier than qualy hence a much lower ride height, the lower ride height may actually not be as efficient for the aero set up the RB has.

Why is the RB not as quick (relatively) on Sundays, well apart from the above, the DRS can not be used anywhere near as much meaning the RB has more drag for more of the lap. Basically the car has too much down force (and drag) during a race.
edit: sorry I see you tackled this and I agree with you on it. It must be because of the change in ride height, probably means the front wing becomes sub-optimal.

The thing is, I can't recall seeing an RB disappearing into the distance during a race.

 

[GravyMonster]

Just leaving for home, so I'm going to have to post and run, but this pretty much sums up my position on the Maldonado/Hamilton collision: racing accident.

The positions of overtaker and overtakee (if that's a word) is pretty much identical in both cases. It's the choice of the driver being overtaken whether or not they have an accident. Exactly as it was with Hamilton and Schumacher at the hairpin. Schumacher made a dive down the inside, Hamilton saw it coming and got out of the way. Forceful, but fair.

IMO Hamilton should not have been penalised for this.

 

[Slam62]

They wouldn't dare tell him, he would claim it's because he's black and they would be in a tribunal



I can't wait to see if it is, I still don't believe what someone said earlier that it's all down to the EBD and they will struggle to get podiums.

First people banged on about the time coming from the front wing, then the rear wing being designed that way for better DRS benefit, now everyones trying to claim in the EBD.

When that's removed everyone will probably say they are using the 'Force' for extra downforce.

I'm not saying anyones wrong, I find it curious and it will be interesting to see how much the RB design changes if EBD is removed

of course I could be wrong, but... what if

Take it to the extreme,

A normally running engine ignites the fuel just before TDC, if you delay the ignition timing, the engine produces less torque, so you then create a relationship between amount of ignition delay and engine torque. Connect this to the position of the throttle pedal.

So the engine runs at nearly maximum revs even on a trailing throttle, the engine still injects the usual amount of fuel or something but because the fuel is ignited so late it produces low power.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

lol Brundle's commentating is about as hot headed as Hamiltons post race interviews!

I enjoy his grid walks but his inability to be partial along with David "All hail Red Bull" Coulthard is making for some painful television

Still prefer the combo over Legard. I was irritated by Brundle's comments at the end of the race referring back to their commentary as if it was gospel.

 

[Glaucus]

Still prefer the combo over Legard. I was irritated by Brundle's comments at the end of the race referring back to their commentary as if it was gospel.

Who cares still pants compared to 90% of commentators. Really wish BBC looked else where and shouldn't be scared of change.

 

[Duke]

Just leaving for home, so I'm going to have to post and run, but this pretty much sums up my position on the Maldonado/Hamilton collision: racing accident.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

The positions of overtaker and overtakee (if that's a word) is pretty much identical in both cases. It's the choice of the driver being overtaken whether or not they have an accident. Exactly as it was with Hamilton and Schumacher at the hairpin. Schumacher made a dive down the inside, Hamilton saw it coming and got out of the way. Forceful, but fair.

IMO Hamilton should not have been penalised for this.

I have to agree. It is difficult to judge, but if a driver turned in like that on another track when he was that close, it would be more clear cut but at Monaco it seems only the driver on the inside is ever wrong.

It really depends on how far alongside the driver is against the one ahead.

 

[FrankJH]

I have to agree, we already banked on 2 cars in the top 5 regardless of position, would have been interesting to see Jenson have a go at Alonso [i guarentee that would have ended in tears] Seb thought he had enough in the tyres to hold them both off, unfortunatley,we will never know.

No one will ever know now - but Alonso could well have had a go at Vettel first

(considering what Alonso has said since the race concerning the Championship practically already being SV's - I think my comment is valid)

 

[BF-Bert]

Just leaving for home, so I'm going to have to post and run, but this pretty much sums up my position on the Maldonado/Hamilton collision: racing accident.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

The positions of overtaker and overtakee (if that's a word) is pretty much identical in both cases. It's the choice of the driver being overtaken whether or not they have an accident. Exactly as it was with Hamilton and Schumacher at the hairpin. Schumacher made a dive down the inside, Hamilton saw it coming and got out of the way. Forceful, but fair.

IMO Hamilton should not have been penalised for this.

Isn't it amazing what photographs at different scales can be made to show.

 

[NathanE]

Alright lad, we get the point. Give it a rest.

All I have left to add is this:

History shows us that whenever Hamilton has a public meltdown like this. He goes on to win the very next race.

So yes, I think it may be worth putting some bets on for Canada

 

[Masterdog]

Still prefer the combo over Legard. I was irritated by Brundle's comments at the end of the race referring back to their commentary as if it was gospel.

Aye. I, and I'm sure many others on here, realised much earlier than they did that Seb didn't have to stop again, and that it was probably worth the gamble on a track like Monaco. All the time they were saying, "And Button's easily got a pit stop over Vettel, why aren't they bringing Seb in" etc etc and only realised the situation when there were like 15 laps to go.

 

[Kerming]

Slam62 I am intrigued to here your view on the rake angle of the redbull........please explain how this works?

 

[Cavallino]

A lot better than Legard though, that bloke's awful. He does football now for the BBC and he's just as bad at that.

Even Brundle is making some very Legard esque mistakes. Infact they seem to be happening more and more often as the season continues. Even DC is now correcting a lot of his mistakes. Especially in Monaco.

Hope its just a blip. Giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Masterdog]

Brundle's blog is up - he admits hamilton shouldn't have been penalised for the Maldonado overtake, but is ambivalent about Massa.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I honestly think Brundle has lost interest. His grid walks used to be the thing of legend, these days he just doesn't seem to care.

On the plus side, overall the BBC coverage goes from strength to strength. Apart from the "casino chips montage" just before the race, the rest of the coverage was excellent.

 

[LizardKing]

Even Brundle is making some very Legard esque mistakes. Infact they seem to be happening more and more often as the season continues. Even DC is now correcting a lot of his mistakes. Especially in Monaco.

Hope its just a blip. Giving him the benefit of the doubt.

There both missing key parts of the action as well, one thing comes to mind is when there debating whether drs would be disabled after the red flag with it showing "drs disabled" on the screen, surely one of there screens showing this?!
Maybe if they weren't so **** sure of themselves it would be less of an irritant.

 

[JRS]

All I have left to add is this:

History shows us that whenever Hamilton has a public meltdown like this. He goes on to win the very next race.

So yes, I think it may be worth putting some bets on for Canada

He's who I'd have my money on if I was a gambling man. I think the Canada circuit will play to the McLaren's strengths in race conditions, and Lewis will be well and truly fired up and out for revenge now

Some interesting things from Brundle's blog:

What could have been an 'airplane crash' as Hamilton passed Massa at the kink in the tunnel was only avoided because Massa saw him coming and then surfed the tyre marbles into the wall. That one was wild to say the least and Lewis was pushing both their lucks in the extreme.

I bet that's not a view shared by many on here. Most people have said LOLMassa and put no blame for the incident on Hamilton. I really didn't think it was as clear-cut as that, and it's interesting that Brundle shares that opinion.

I felt for Jenson Button on Sunday. He drove a great race, led beautifully, did absolutely nothing wrong, and finished third. The tyre compound strategy of going super soft, super soft, soft made a lot of sense to maintain the leading pace, but would guarantee he had to make a third stop in order to comply with the regulations and use both types of tyre. It would also leave him exposed in a safety car scenario.
The two safety cars and the red flag were very cruel to him. As was the regulation allowing Vettel and Alonso to put on fresh tyres under the red flag, effectively having a free pit stop.

I notice that drunkenmaster seems to pretty vehemently disagree with the idea that Button's race was a decent job gone for a Burton thanks to external factors. Colour. Me. Surprised. I happen to think that Button did an excellent job, and would have had a great opportunity to win the race if Parc Fermé conditions held during red flags. Too late now, but the FIA really could do with looking at that. It basically undid most of Pirelli's work with making the tyres fall away, which the FIA had wanted!

With speed, skill and such luck Vettel is truly unbeateable. Team mate Mark Webber knows that all too well in his curious season. He has delivered the fastest lap in four of the last five races, has yet to finish outside of the top 5 this season, and yet is 64 points behind the runaway Vettel.

I hope you're wrong about Vettel being unbeatable Martin, I really do. Not because I don't like Vettel - I do, and finger-wagging and crazy frog radio nonsense aside he seems to be back to being the likeable guy he was when he won his first race at Monza in '08. No, it's mainly that I can't stand seeing Christian Horner looking all happy and smug. And I hate hearing the Austrian national anthem play every time they win when the team is based in Milton ******* Keynes.

 

[Masterdog]

And I hate hearing the Austrian national anthem play every time they win when the team is based in Milton ******* Keynes.

Finally! I'm glad that annoys somebody else, I thought I was the only one.

 

[FrankJH]

Aye. I, and I'm sure many others on here, realised much earlier than they did that Seb didn't have to stop again, and that it was probably worth the gamble on a track like Monaco. All the time they were saying, "And Button's easily got a pit stop over Vettel, why aren't they bringing Seb in" etc etc and only realised the situation when there were like 15 laps to go.

I very much doubt SV would have lasted the extra......15 /20 laps over which Pirelli stated the tyres would die off after, with both Alonso and Button right up behind him, he would have been 3 or 4 seconds slower/lap almost immediately after the safety car came out

He didnt HAVE to stop no - but whether he would have been forced to (to save third place) is another matter.

Also remember that given Alonso's statement, he might as well have forced his way through on better tyres to TRY for the win , and imo in that state from SV's point of view 15 (or 18 for second) points is wayyyy better than none by causing an accident / not avoiding an accident

 

[Slam62]

I honestly think Brundle has lost interest. His grid walks used to be the thing of legend, these days he just doesn't seem to care.

On the plus side, overall the BBC coverage goes from strength to strength. Apart from the "casino chips montage" just before the race, the rest of the coverage was excellent.

OMG that casino montage was tragic, what were they thinking and it seemed to go on for ages.

 

[Dunks]

I honestly think Brundle has lost interest. His grid walks used to be the thing of legend, these days he just doesn't seem to care.

On the plus side, overall the BBC coverage goes from strength to strength. Apart from the "casino chips montage" just before the race, the rest of the coverage was excellent.

His walks last season were awesome, this seasons are pretty good as well imo.