True, but my point wasn't so much whether it would have worked, but more that Brundle and DC hadn't appeared to have spotted what was a fairly obvious ploy from Seb. If even I could work out what was going on, I would have expected two seasoned drivers to mention it at least once rather than wonder why Vettel wasn't coming in.
Monaco Grand Prix 2011, Monte-Carlo - Race 6/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
True, but my point wasn't so much whether it would have worked, but more that Brundle and DC hadn't appeared to have spotted what was a fairly obvious ploy from Seb. If even I could work out what was going on, I would have expected two seasoned drivers to mention it at least once rather than wonder why Vettel wasn't coming in.
Soldato
Planet F1 is normally a bit of a troll site and always comes across as very anti-Hamilton. It probably doesn't help that 100% of their comments (which admittedly they can't control) are always slating Hamilton for seemingly even existing. But wow, for once their editorial gets it absolutely spot on.
Courtesy of Planet-F1 said:
Soldato
I'll explain later mate
suffice to say, take away the EBD and the whole package fails to function, qualifying will be a lot closer, RB will fall back in the races.
My money would be on McLaren and Ferrari to breeze past RB, the only question is can Vettel ring enough out of the car to make up the difference.
Actually we could see a really good Hammi - Fred battle with Button picking up the pieces.
Do they bring in the twin DRS zone for Montreal? That could have unintended consequences. Probably resulting in Hammi on pole.
I have to agree with all of that.
Soldato
I agree with what you posted from Planet F1 as well. But we all know that Ferrari sent out massa to get in the way on Lewis in quli
Of course, cause after all Hamilton is running away with the WDC by more than 50 points....
No.. wait... that can't be right
No, Milton Keynes annoys the hell out of me too.
Do they bring in the twin DRS zone for Montreal? That could have unintended consequences. Probably resulting in Hammi on pole.
IIRC there's only one DRS detection area. Great idea guys...
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I'll explain later mate
suffice to say, take away the EBD and the whole package fails to function, qualifying will be a lot closer, RB will fall back in the races.
I agree with much of what you have posted and the posts earlier were good food for thought but I still don't get why you think this.
Ok they ban EBD and they qually gap gets much smaller, fair enough if the EBD is the magic 0.7 the others seem to be trying to find in the red bull car.
Why does that gap dissapear in the race?
Probably as you alluded to earlier, using it in the race would be too large a weight penalty. Surely then they aren't using it that much in the races and have still won so many races?
Just my thoughts, again interested to see how it pans out.
Also why would a twin drs area at montreal give Hammy the pole? They can currently use it anywhere they like in qfy and so far that's worked pretty well for Vettel. Again it was rumoured to be the source of red bulls saturday dominance.
Why would 2 zones for the race give hamilton pole apart from a slight set up alteration for the reduced sections of downforce in one area instead of two?
While they have EBD I don't see them nailing the 7/10th's they seem to have in hand in qually just with an extra drs zone for the race.
Soldato
Of course, cause after all Hamilton is running away with the WDC by more than 50 points....
No.. wait... that can't be right
I don't think Ferrari want to finish 3rd this year AGAIN
Soldato
dannyjo22, Surely that gap between Qualifying & Race day vanishes due to aggressive engine settings in qually that would destroy an engine & or it's fuel economy during a race? Or is this not possible?
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he makes light of the fact aswell like its something to be proud of..
usually insults him during the races etc.... says hes no good at overtaking then the next race he will be praising him for his racecraft etc
i suspect hes going senile he obviously isnt capable of keeping up with whats going on anymore and he honstly doesnt seem that intrested in F1 like he used to be.
time for someone else to take his place imo
There were several examples of this during the race, most notably MB's several references to the Monaco 1992 race and saying things like Mansell had 'the widest Williams that day' implying that it was him infront of a much faster Senna when in fact it was vice-versa.
In some ways I enjoy the commentary this year more as it's been more 'relaxed' without the shouty-ness of Legard (and to a lesser extent Allen) and there is an obvious rapport between MB and DC. On the other hand I'm underwhelmed by DC's role; he is WAY to pro-Red Bull to be truly impartial and he doesn't really fulfil the co-commentator's "driver's insight" role in the way that MB did when he was No.2 to MW/JA/JL. I was amused by PlanetF1's nickname for DC: quagmire
On to the race!
Enjoyable race, ruined by frankly daft rules allowing tyre changes and other work on the grid. They may as well have stopped the race there and then and saved the fuel. I'm guessing the Stewards were trying to salvage the potential 'grandstand finish' but this was scuppered by said rules above.
Props to Lewis for actually 'having a go' and proving that you *can* overtake at Monaco with the new regs as long as you have a compliant victim - MS in this case. Maldonado fought when he should've seen the writing on the wall and let the faster guy go - granted it was a bit rash but he lost a decent points finish which would've been invaluable to Williams right now. On the flip side, he was far too impatient with Massa.
I've a nasty feeling that this championship is going to be done and dusted by Hungary
Do they bring in the twin DRS zone for Montreal? That could have unintended consequences. Probably resulting in Hammi on pole.
DRS use is unrestricted in qualifying. The zones are only for the race. Personally I'd prefer the DRS to be limited in quali and practice too but hey...
only just got around to watching the race.
i assume the panalties have all been discussed and numerous pictures with lines on been posted many times.
i would say the first by hamilton on massa was a penalty because di resta got one, cant give him one then have the same happen and not give it again.
2nd one wasnt, schui managed to avoid a crash so why not the williams.
interview was amusing but some of it true, 5 out of 6 races hes been in the stewards... they mite aswell just ban racing and have follow the red bull.
I think button mite of leaked some brawn secrets, how many bumps did hamyons car take and got no damage.
Also this track should not be in the f1 calendar. You can't overtake without being penalised it's not a race track. Terrible race made watchable by Hamilton and the crashes.
And what a stupid rule to allow changes when a race is red flagged.
Button should have won this race. He was right behind alonso and vettel on 10ish lap old tyres and he decides to follow them round not even attempting a move.
anyway im glad Hamilton got angry because the next race he normally wins
i assume the panalties have all been discussed and numerous pictures with lines on been posted many times.
i would say the first by hamilton on massa was a penalty because di resta got one, cant give him one then have the same happen and not give it again.
2nd one wasnt, schui managed to avoid a crash so why not the williams.
interview was amusing but some of it true, 5 out of 6 races hes been in the stewards... they mite aswell just ban racing and have follow the red bull.
I think button mite of leaked some brawn secrets, how many bumps did hamyons car take and got no damage.
Also this track should not be in the f1 calendar. You can't overtake without being penalised it's not a race track. Terrible race made watchable by Hamilton and the crashes.
And what a stupid rule to allow changes when a race is red flagged.
Button should have won this race. He was right behind alonso and vettel on 10ish lap old tyres and he decides to follow them round not even attempting a move.
anyway im glad Hamilton got angry because the next race he normally wins
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Caporegime
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- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
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What I really want to know is, what did Button do that was great? Forceful overtaking? He used 4 sets of tyres to Vettel's 2, and ended up behind him.
I don't know when he caught Alonso but before the red flag he essentially cruised around following for 5 laps, unless both the cars infront slowed down to save fuel, and he needed to but ignored the call, I can't see how he'd overtake.
Vettel had a extra long pit because one guy said "hang on a minute, this isn't the right tyre, smeg it, no choice now", and indeed they put the wrong tyre on.
Do not forget, Vettel rather cleverly realised he was boned and PURPOSEFULLY WENT SLOW for 60 laps to save his tyres.
Vettel went slow to preserve his tyres, Button burned through 4 sets, still ended up behind him and showed literally no indication of overtaking.
I didn't say Button had a crap race, he certainly didn't have a good race.
Throughout the thread I've seen basically "button had a great race because, errm, he was really fast at several points", but never explaining why thats a big deal, which it wasn't. If you burn through a set of tyres in 15 laps, you'll be fast, seriously, he was SOOO fast he couldn't get ahead of 50 lap old tyres Vettel.
Just come up with a single reason Button had a good race, one, and quantify it. He was fast....... but he basically had the freshest tyres of anyone at every single stage of the race.
He started second....... and came 3rd.
He caught the front two painfully fast and had massively fresher tyres....... and sat back hoping someone made a mistake.
One thing is all I ask, like, he came out the pits with fresh tyres and made ONE great overtake, or, his pit team screwed up and stuck him in the pits for an extra 10 seconds, but he made it work, his team put the wrong tyre on and threw the strategy out the window, but he made it work?
Button had the fastest strategy, with the least mistakes outside his control, and he showed ZERO aggression, had a clear track more often than most, used more super softs than maybe anyone else, certainly the front runners, he had literally every advantage and he finished...... further back.
If he has a great race, I'll say so, but going backwards with every single advantage, sorry I'm not going to BS because he's English and say it was great, it wasn't. Hamilton had every single disadvantage, 2 bogus penalties and MOVED UP THE GRID, stuck behind car after car, ruined pitstops. Button wouldn't in 12 million years made any three of those passes and have finished further back.
Looks like they are going to move the barrier back after the tunnel.
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-fia-to-move-monaco-chicane-barrier-for-2012/
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-fia-to-move-monaco-chicane-barrier-for-2012/
I see what your saying and I agree to an extent. I think most of his race came down to events outside his control and luck, both good and bad.
He was fortunate that RBR made an unusual mistake with the pitstops but then he was unfortunate with the timing of the safety car and the red flag at the end.
If the race had continued normally after the RBR pitstop fiasco, I think Button would have won.
If the safety car hadn't come out when it did, I think Button would have won.
If the red flag hadn't allowed Vettel and Alonso to replace their tyres then I think Button could have at least taken Alonso, possibly Vettel.
You're right in saying that towards the end Button wasn't making a move on Fred and Finger Boy but at the time that seemed like the sensible option. He has 15 or so laps left with much fresher tyres and he could patiently wait for an opportune moment. Unfortunately for him, his plan was scuppered by the red flag.
His strategy at each point in the race made perfect sense right up until other events got in the way. What made it worse for Button was that these events played straight into the hands of the other two.
You could argue that he didn't adapt quickly enough to change his strategy but hindsight is a wonderful thing. At the time, with the information he had, each of his decisions looked to be the correct one and then something out of his control changed everything.
If those things hadn't happened then Button would have won, we wouldn't be having this conversation and everyone would have been saying what a great race he'd had. I think that's why everyone is saying he had a good race and should have got better than 3rd.
Soldato
That pretty much sums up my opinion perfectly. Every time he made a decision, he made the correct one for that moment. Other events got in the way which lost him track position, and he made good use of fresher tyres to close right up. And honestly - what would have been the point in sending a rash one up the inside of Alonso? They'd almost certainly have collided (Alonso isn't the type to give room!), Button would almost certainly have been penalised, and that's if it wasn't a race-ending collision.
Put it this way - he did a hell of a lot better than his team-mate, who hit everything except the pace car (so close to perfection, and yet so far....) and who spent the rest of the race weekend after aborting his first Q3 lap in full-on Sulk Mode™.
Without Hamilton and Kobayashi, would we have seen any overtaking in the race? While they can get it wrong, I respect them for having the aggression that someone like Vettel or Webber lacks.
Now that RBR are the 21st century's Williams-Renault, Vettel will walk it in 2011 if Hamilton isn't there to keep up the chase. Just like we needed MSc to keep past title races interesting when Williams\McLaren dominated.