Motorsport Off Topic Thread

[Mesai]

Because the want to damage the dominant team in the sport at the moment?

Then I want reparations for the pain that was Merc's dominance. Anyone got nipple pics from Toto?

 

[cuke2u]

There is validity in questioning the actual independence of someone appointed by Red Bull to investigate Red Bull. I know it’s the Red Bull parent company investigating Red Bull F1 but I doubt they want the negative press and embarrassment on a subsidiary.

It’s a similar discussion about Trump and if his cases end up at the Supreme Court. The judges are supposed to be independent but there are questions over whether the ones Trump appointed will go in his favour.

Now I’m not saying there is anything dodgy about Red Bull appointed Barrister but it is right to question it rather than take it at face value of being independent. Especially now given the Barristers decision and the leaks which don’t quite line up.

Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we have heard nothing from any of the governing bodies of F1 to suggest they are unhappy with how the investigation was conducted.
As far a s I understand it was Red Bull headquarters, not Red Bull F1, once having had the allegations presented to them immediately asked for the investigation to be conducted by a INDEPENDANT barrister.

What is suggested is then bringing into question the barrister's credentials to conduct a INDEPENDANT investigation with zero evidence.
So not only is Horner being demonised the INDEPENDANT barrister seems to be also.
Until, putting personal opinions aside, we have any evidence to the contrary then there is no argument that the investigation to be other than conducted in a proper and correct manner.

As far as as these leaks are concerned, give me a break, if anyone really believes that any unsubstantiated social media post is the gods truth, then I feel sorry for them.
Social media is far worse than any red top at producing lies and SM is the mouthpiece for any warped individual to have their say it seems. Trump, Musk etc. etc. exploit it very well. Someone who wishes to settle a score, even someone who has a very negative opinion of Red Bull F1 and Horner.

It's all a popcorn moment, but we live in a sad world it seems...

 

[Mr Jack]

Apologies for the link in my last post, @Armageus.

Now I’m not saying there is anything dodgy about Red Bull appointed Barrister but it is right to question it rather than take it at face value of being independent. Especially now given the Barristers decision and the leaks which don’t quite line up.

Yeah. To some extent, of course Red Bull are going to be choosing who investigates, but they're not really doing anything to give the appearance that it has been a truly independent process, especially with all the rumours of them being picked by the Thai owners to get their desired outcome swirling. There are companies that specialise in conducting these kind of investigations, and a reputation for doing them rigorously, if they wanted to avoid the appearance of shenanigans then appointing such a company would be an easy way of doing it - wouldn't have satisfied everyone, I'm sure, but reasonable people would have accepted it. As it is, we don't even know who the "independent specialist barrister" involved was. Maybe they're a solid pick, but if they don't say we don't know and it gives the appearance that this may have been more of a operation to protect Horner than a serious impartial assessment of his involvement.

And, of course, in the world of corporate reputations, appearances are what matters.

 

[cuke2u]

As it is, we don't even know who the "independent specialist barrister" involved was. Maybe they're a solid pick, but if they don't say we don't know and it gives the appearance that this may have been more of a operation to protect Horner than a serious impartial assessment of his involvement.

I don't doubt for one moment it would be proper to release the name of the barrister who conducted the independent investigation. After all with all of the vitriol towards Horner that person also would have also been targeted as well. So they are correct in not revealing their name.
Unfortunately these days it seems that anyone with a warped mind, or an axe to grind, can send anything and even death threats on social media, forums etc. directed towards an individual who is just doing their job.

 

[Greboth]

Whilst everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we have heard nothing from any of the governing bodies of F1 to suggest they are unhappy with how the investigation was conducted.

I didn't mention the governing bodies of F1 so why bring them up But I guess, while it was an internal investigation, they wouldn't care as it's nothing to do with them. There's a chance they might now with the leak due to the attention it's bringing to F1 as a whole but I'd imagine they'll stick to "it's an internal matter for Red Bull".

What is suggested is then bringing into question the barrister's credentials to conduct a INDEPENDANT investigation with zero evidence.
So not only is Horner being demonised the INDEPENDANT barrister seems to be also.
Until, putting personal opinions aside, we have any evidence to the contrary then there is no argument that the investigation to be other than conducted in a proper and correct manner.

I CAN USE CAPS TOO!

But to answer in kind, I know it was Red Bull HQ, not Red Bull F1, that hired the independent investigator however it's still Red Bull hiring someone to investigate Red Bull. Do you not think that leads to the POSSIBILITY of it not being truly independent? Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying the Barrister IS dodgy just that there's a POTENTIAL conflict of interest and it's worth checking that the Barrister was truly independent.
Is that not exactly how these things work? Someone thinks hmmmm I wonder if that Barrister was actually independent? I'll have a look to see if there's any proof of it (side note, that proof can be for or against). You don't just stumble on to evidence of something without first looking for it. You bring up red tops, the only reason you know they're rubbish is because you read them and looked in to their stories to find they're rubbish. If you question the narrative of red tops, what's wrong with questioning the narrative of Red Bull story of hiring an independent Barrister?

Again, I'm not saying there is anything dodgy or that the Barrister should be demonised for not being independent because at this time it would appear they were. I'm only saying that it's right to check IF they actually were independent rather than take Red Bull's word for it.

As far as as these leaks are concerned, give me a break, if anyone really believes that any unsubstantiated social media post is the gods truth, then I feel sorry for them.

That's just as bad but the other way. You can't just totally ignore the leaked messages as unsubstantiated as that would forever stop you from substantiating them.

 

[uscool]

the timing of the the screenshots taken right when the messages arrived I find interesting like its planned suprised it got this far, would have thought would have settled with pay out + nda signed

 

[GravyMonster]

Here's a thorough write up from Reddit regarding the internal situation in Red Bull following the passing of Mateschitz - worth a read:

In the past Dietrich had an active but remote and far removed interest in Red Bull F1 as he didn't like to attend races. His friend Marko was his representative at races and also in charge of the driver program whilst Horner ran the Red Bull team.

when it came to big picture ideas and decisions like drivers; Horner and Marko decided together. For a non driver example it was reported that Marko and Horner together decided to take on the Honda engine and run it as a Red Bull engine. They went to Dietrich to sell him on the idea and have him sign off on it.

The problem is when you have 2 people deciding something together, what happens when you disagree? The old answer was take it to Dietrich and let Dietrich make the final say.

Now that Dietrich is dead if Marko and Horner disagree who makes the final say? His death meant the joint power/ joint decision making was no longer tenable and according to reports Horner tried to get the backing from the Thai owners (who like Horner) to take over these decisions solely, sidestepping Marko.

However this failed and Marko extended his contract with the new corporate management in Austria.

when it comes to the Verstappen's : Max is reported to be fine with both of them but is more loyal to Marko than Horner so if it comes down to a choice he would stick with Marko. And there are reports Jos and Horner had a falling out. So Jos is very much on Marko’s side in the power struggle.

Then to complicate things further; Though Dietrich had a 49% share of the company he signed a deal with the Thai owners of the other 51% to have full control of the company and decision making. So Dietrich really did have sole authority over everything.

However while his son inherited the 49% shares, the deal of full control did not transfer to his son. That expired with Dietrich’s death.

And so management over Red Bull GmbH is more complicated. The Thai owners, the Yoovidhya’s own the majority shares and are now no longer restrained from making decisions.

Add on to this the fact that Mark Matechitz may have inherited the 49% shares but is not the CEO. There are now CEOs for the beverage side and the marketing/sports side. So the running of the company in Austria has become far more corporate. With some reports saying that Oliver Mintzlaff one of the CEO’s wants more control over the F1 team.

and so you have two power struggles,

1 in Red Bull F1 Between Christian vs Marko and Austria HQ

1 in Red Bull GMBH where the Austrian senior management are now uncertain how much the Thai Majority shareholders want to interfere and manage themselves.

as a result Horner and the Thai owners seem naturally aligned and they support Horner- Its worth noting it was the Thai owners that arranged and hired the independent barrister to investigate Horner - not the Austrian HQ.

All in all the removal of Dietrich’s unchallenged, unquestioned running of the company when he died has led to uncertainty and instability in Red Bull and a power vacuum.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Perhaps, but unless there is evidence of Horner abusing this situation then we can only go off of what we have seen so far. I've not seen any evidence to the contrary. All I'm seeing is hearsay.

ALLEGEDLY, Horner was abusing the situation the moment he entered into a relationship with a subordinate, AND did not declare it to HR.
I find it almost impossible that is not written into his contract, given his seniority.

Which is why I am confused by the results of the investigation. Perhaps they ruled it was not a "relationship?" through some legal interpretation of the term, or simply that what we are seeing is not an accurate representation of the evidence used in the investigation (or fake)....

 

[cuke2u]

I didn't mention the governing bodies of F1 so why bring them up But I guess, while it was an internal investigation, they wouldn't care as it's nothing to do with them. There's a chance they might now with the leak due to the attention it's bringing to F1 as a whole but I'd imagine they'll stick to "it's an internal matter for Red Bull".



I CAN USE CAPS TOO!

But to answer in kind, I know it was Red Bull HQ, not Red Bull F1, that hired the independent investigator however it's still Red Bull hiring someone to investigate Red Bull. Do you not think that leads to the POSSIBILITY of it not being truly independent? Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying the Barrister IS dodgy just that there's a POTENTIAL conflict of interest and it's worth checking that the Barrister was truly independent.
Is that not exactly how these things work? Someone thinks hmmmm I wonder if that Barrister was actually independent? I'll have a look to see if there's any proof of it (side note, that proof can be for or against). You don't just stumble on to evidence of something without first looking for it. You bring up red tops, the only reason you know they're rubbish is because you read them and looked in to their stories to find they're rubbish. If you question the narrative of red tops, what's wrong with questioning the narrative of Red Bull story of hiring an independent Barrister?

Again, I'm not saying there is anything dodgy or that the Barrister should be demonised for not being independent because at this time it would appear they were. I'm only saying that it's right to check IF they actually were independent rather than take Red Bull's word for it.



That's just as bad but the other way. You can't just totally ignore the leaked messages as unsubstantiated as that would forever stop you from substantiating them.

When these, so labelled 'leaked messages, are substantiated as being true then we can believe them. But as of yet there is zero evidence that they are no more than just petty gossip at best. But what is obvious is that there is someone who cannot tolerate the fact that Horner has been exonerated and blameless.

If you wish to think they come from a reliable source that is entirely to you but you seem to be stating one thing with the barrister and another with these, possibly faked, posts, and contradicting yourself.

As stated, all a popcorn moment and about as much interest as watching paint dry.

 

[Scam]

I am not sure you understand the power dynamic at play here. You get your dream job in F1, great salary, travel, mixing with powerful people and good prospects. You get a little flirty with a senior official (not a great idea, sure, but as you said, it takes 2 to tango) and now you have a total imbalance of power.

Its not just a simple cheating situation here, work is involved, and now you have to try to balance your job with trying not to upset the man you had a little fling with for fear of losing your dream job.

Exactly. This power dynamic is exactly why people like Weinstein got away with it for so long. And it’s exactly why companies will not allow it in this day and age.

I’d say I’m surprised that RB fans are defending this type of alleged behaviour - but I’m just not surprised at all actually. The RB fans’ responses were already becoming Trumpian before this kicked off properly, and I called it out then. Now it’s just lols.

 

[Mr Jack]

It seems to me rather more likely than not that the leaked messages are real. If they were faked, then surely Red Bull would release a statement saying something like "we are aware of a large number of images circulating that are claimed to have come from the investigation of Horner, we are able to confirm that these images do not match the information given to us our investigation". The discussion about these messages is doing ongoing damage to their brand; if they knew them to be fake then this would be a simple way to cut them off at the pass.

 

[Armageus]

For the avoidance of doubt (and to avoid any possible legal implications for OcUK, however remote they may be) - please do not link directly to, or embed any of the content here.

Thanks

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

I am hearing on x that legal threats are being made to UK media outlets that the alleged leaks are not to be published or discussed or face legal action.
This is interesting

 

[Jono8]

It seems to me rather more likely than not that the leaked messages are real. If they were faked, then surely Red Bull would release a statement saying something like "we are aware of a large number of images circulating that are claimed to have come from the investigation of Horner, we are able to confirm that these images do not match the information given to us our investigation". The discussion about these messages is doing ongoing damage to their brand; if they knew them to be fake then this would be a simple way to cut them off at the pass.

They aren't fake

 

[Slam62]

It seems to me rather more likely than not that the leaked messages are real. If they were faked, then surely Red Bull would release a statement saying something like "we are aware of a large number of images circulating that are claimed to have come from the investigation of Horner, we are able to confirm that these images do not match the information given to us our investigation". The discussion about these messages is doing ongoing damage to their brand; if they knew them to be fake then this would be a simple way to cut them off at the pass.

Exactly, the more it drags on the worse it gets, the internal enquiry nonsense can now presumably be chucked in the bin.

 

[Jono8]

I am hearing on x that legal threats are being made to UK media outlets that the alleged leaks are not to be published or discussed or face legal action.
This is interesting

What legal action can they take against outlets that simply say "we got sent this, make of it what you will" ?

 

[bayo000]

this thread escalated, I went to see Bill Bailey gig last night and when I came here it looks like I'm reading a Love Island thread

Personally I don't really care one way or another, as long as there wasn't anything illegal/ against companies policies then it's up to him and RB to decide.

 

[Tigget]

Have read it all now, if true, extremely embarrassing and stupid.

Feel sorry for children etc involved who may be hurt by fallings out and also for anyone in the team who likely will be impacted by it all. After all, there’s thousands of people working tirelessly to build these cars who now have this weighing over them.

Obviously the latter part most on here don’t care about, as they’re solely focussed on hating team X of person Y and forget the “little” people behind it all working away.

 

[Scam]

What legal action can they take against outlets that simply say "we got sent this, make of it what you will" ?

I don’t think any outlets worth their salt would be interested in printing the messages/pictures. They can just refer to messages leaked that allege to be between Horner etc. Nobody can stop them doing that surely.

 

[Jono8]

Have read it all now, if true, extremely embarrassing and stupid.

Feel sorry for children etc involved who may be hurt by fallings out and also for anyone in the team who likely will be impacted by it all. After all, there’s thousands of people working tirelessly to build these cars who now have this weighing over them.

Obviously the latter part most on here don’t care about, as they’re solely focussed on hating team X of person Y and forget the “little” people behind it all working away.

You would have thought that if he was going to have an affair, he would have at least have gone elsewhere and not done it with a low ranking employee of his. I guess its easier to get away with as you'd naturally be with them and can arrange for hotel rooms next to each other etc, but as the saying goes "dont **** where you eat".