Natural/in built motivation?

[Jono8]

But if you don't try.. You're guaranteed to get no where.

Ive already said this many times....

Although even that isnt true 100% of the time, because a huge swathe of people are simply born into wealth and jobs and connections etc.

I simply hate the "try hard and you will succeed at anything you want to do" mantra. Because it is objectively horse ****.

 

[Jono8]

Well obviously, not everyone is actually going to decide to become a software developer.

No, exactly. Because they can't.

My point is (and this is obviously a simplified example), that there might only be 10 software development posts available in the world, but 200 people have their life long dream of being a software developer.

Out of those 200 people, my argument is that it almost certainly isn't the most hard working and talented 10 people that get those posts. Those 200 people could all put just as much effort and work into getting that post, but only 10 will (and likely not the best ones either due to a myriad of other factors).

 

[Lightnix]

I think motivation, for most people, is fairly straightforward: is the reward worth it? Is the reward likely? And is the reward better than other rewards you can get for similar effort?

You can also often substitute "prevention of pain" instead of reward here.

If the answer is no to any of those, motivation becomes very hard to come by - mostly because your attention will be on whatever answers yes to more of them.

So if you want motivation you need to align the project you pick with your incentives.

For instance I've put quite a bit of time into making little hobby games and stuff over the years, but the only reward from that that I get is their existence and my own amusement. The indie games market is fairly saturated and so further expected reward becomes both little and unlikely. It doesn't give much in the way of social validation, either. Therefore it's not worth the effort of "productionising" them.

As well as that my day job takes up most of my time and effort. So basically I'm only ever motivated to do the easy/fun bit when it comes to projects to do in my spare time.

 

[413x]

Ive already said this many times....

Although even that isnt true 100% of the time, because a huge swathe of people are simply born into wealth and jobs and connections etc.

I simply hate the "try hard and you will succeed at anything you want to do" mantra. Because it is objectively horse ****.

I still think you are being too idealistic.

If you can see success as personal (ie not comparing to others) you are likely to be a much more "successful" and have the positive emotions that come with it.


A real example for myself.
I know I'll never be the best kayaker. I'll never even compete.
But when I actually managed to do my first beach to beach journey on my own, in a high risk (if something goes wrong.. Bad times as no exit points) was a huge success for me.

It included no one else. My success was personal. And that was enough.

This is by far the best way to measure success at a personal level. It's achievable. When it wasn't before. Without the effort put in prior, I couldn't have done it.

It was a milestone for me I still remember (because I thought I was ****** half way through) and one of the few life memories I'll carry forever.


This can be same for any number of things. From going out to a social event for the first time, to lowering your debt. These small steps can provide success in a broad number of ways.


Sucess does not mean being the best. Or beating others.

 

[Jono8]

I still think you are being too idealistic.

If you can see success as personal (ie not comparing to others) you are likely to be a much more "successful" and have the positive emotions that come with it.


A real example for myself.
I know I'll never be the best kayaker. I'll never even compete.
But when I actually managed to do my first beach to beach journey on my own, in a high risk (if something goes wrong.. Bad times as no exit points) was a huge success for me.

It included no one else. My success was personal. And that was enough.

This is by far the best way to measure success at a personal level. It's achievable. When it wasn't before. Without the effort put in prior, I couldn't have done it.

It was a milestone for me I still remember (because I thought I was ****** half way through) and one of the few life memories I'll carry forever.


This can be same for any number of things. From going out to a social event for the first time, to lowering your debt. These small steps can provide success in a broad number of ways.


Sucess does not mean being the best. Or beating others.

You keep flitting between success being personal, and it being defined as something more than just doing nothing/in relation to societal acceptance.

What if personal success like you have explained here, is not enough for some people?

Just because it works for you, who is to say it works for everyone?

 

[jaybee]

I struggle with motivation to get things done because the list is frankly endless... but I try to channel that into manageable chunks with the dream I trick myself into believing that one day, all of it will be done, and I can sit around watching Netflix and Sport without feeling guilty.
I am one of the "not enough hours in the day/week/month" people. I find it genuinely sad when I hear people say that they would hate to win the lottery or have 6 months off work coz they would get bored and would not know what to do. I could spend years doing nothing. You've got to be careful about doing nothing. You've got to be quite skilled at it. Almost 99% of the time doing nothing you are actually doing something. If I had more time, I would do so much. I love sport. I'd play several. I'd pursue more adventures, travel, do more hobbies. A lot of it is closely related to time and money limitations. We have less time because we need to work to gain money. So again, money can buy happiness through time.

I think feeling the way you do is just the rat race of the UK, which is why I often have the pretend fantasy that I'll leave and go find an amazing life elsewhere. In reality I probably won't ever, due to all that I have here with family and friends.

I would say try to sign up to some stuff where you have to leave the house or you'll be losing money. Gym? Clubs?

 

[413x]

You keep flitting between success being personal, and it being defined as something more than just doing nothing/in relation to societal acceptance.

What if personal success like you have explained here, is not enough for some people?

Just because it works for you, who is to say it works for everyone?

If you define success as being the best. You are almost guaranteed to fail. This is true.
And yes. If this is the only way you get 'pleasure' from trying. You are going to fall into just never trying, because you'll never succeed.
At this point you need to seek help. Because you are going to self destruct.

It happens a lot. But the onus is on you at the end of the day to get help for it.

 

[randomshenans]

A great deal of rich and "successful" people end up topping themselves.

This comes back to my point: What's your measure of success and happiness?

It's Wednesday and I spent the day going for a bike ride with my 8yr old daughter and then we had a picnic at the park. The sun was out, we chatted about everything and nothing. I'm off to see my sister and law and brother this weekend for her birthday. I feel truly blessed I can do those things. You have to remember what's important and that you can both increase your financial wealth and your happiness, but they don't have to be linked. Some people are happy with what they have and that is also fine. I have a constant need to see the world and do it all, but in chasing that I have to ground myself to remember the moments along the way.

it's so important

 

[randomshenans]

What if personal success like you have explained here, is not enough for some people?

Just because it works for you, who is to say it works for everyone?

Then I would suggest that those people are never going to find success if they're measuring it with a goal, because it won't matter when they reach it. My whole point about loving the journey is because we run further if we fall in love with running, than we could if we aimed to run to a destination.

 

[413x]

@Jono8

In my view you equate success to perfectionism.

I have given up hobbies due to being obsessed with perfectionism. Photo editing is one. I would spend so long in light room trying to get my pictures perfect. It ended up in an ever extending backlog. And made me miserable. I gave up on this for a while. Then discovered if I just use my phone and keep pics on my phone I used the simple phone editor. Eventually I became satisfied in this.
I managed to drop the perfectionist view and moved to personal success.

But yeah. I get it. If you can't get away from perfectionism and being the very best, you won't get any enjoyment from trying. And eventually you'll just not try.
But, as said, at end of the day you have to help (or not help) yourself out of that.

 

[randomshenans]

Almost 99% of the time doing nothing you are actually doing something. If I had more time, I would do so much. I love sport. I'd play several. I'd pursue more adventures, travel, do more hobbies. A lot of it is closely related to time and money limitations. We have less time because we need to work to gain money. So again, money can buy happiness through time.

I would definitely say you don't love doing nothing then. It sounds much more like the things you have to do daily just don't light your spark. When you mentioned the things you'd do more, it was like reading a different person writing.

I completely agree on the time / money aspect and as I hit a point, having been so unhappy pushing for success and never getting it, to the point I wanted to end it all, it got bad. I found myself more grounded than ever and do whatever I can do free my time and earn more freedom. All my little side work I really love because it's super fun, but the aim is to buy the freedom to do things like today; spend more time with my kids, or just traveling, doing sports like you said. I push now to try and afford myself the time to do that.

Not getting there wouldn't make me feel unsuccessful though, because I still value so much the journey of where I've been

 

[FoxEye]

How's the road to 50k going? With inflation you may have to self-correct to 70k?

The road is long and meandering. When the weather is favourable, we stop for a picnic.

Somewhere close by, a cat meows.

 

[FoxEye]

This is obviously false.

How would the world work if everyone wanted to be a professional software developer and was guaranteed to become one if they put in the work? Our society and economy simply doesn't work like that.

If you think "luck has nothing to do with it" then you don't understand how the world works. At all. Or more likely, you like to belive that any success you have had in life, is purely becasue of you and that you are better than anyone else who didn't achieve what you did.

I taught myself the basics of programming (and multiple languages), and had a go at making all sorts of stuff.

Then I realised I was absolutely **** at all of it I don't have an engineering mindset.

Yes, anyone can write a few lines of code. Not everyone can structure a program, once it gets larger than a few hundred lines. It's a real engineering skillset and I just get twisted up in knots trying to find the "perfect" and most elegant solution. Every. Single. Time. I'm sure that's partly my crippling OCD at work, tho

 

[SPG]

It's the wrong question for the problem.

Are you happy

Yes or No
If yes then what's the problem.

If No, sort your **** out and do something to make you feel happy.

 

[413x]

I taught myself the basics of programming (and multiple languages), and had a go at making all sorts of stuff.

Then I realised I was absolutely **** at all of it I don't have an engineering mindset.

Yes, anyone can write a few lines of code. Not everyone can structure a program, once it gets larger than a few hundred lines. It's a real engineering skillset and I just get twisted up in knots trying to find the "perfect" and most elegant solution. Every. Single. Time. I'm sure that's partly my crippling OCD at work, tho

You can do OK if doing front end stuff. I've landed on 50k. But I will admit. I've been lucky. I've been using the "in favour" software for long enough my job is in demand.
I also can't do the pure engineering stuff. It's not the engineering side. It's because it's not tangible. Unfortunately I've ended up in a "virtual" job when really, I like physical things. It's probably why I have no love for my job. But I don't hate it.

Main issue is I have terrible short term memory. But really. Good visual memory. I also have good logic.

Unfortunately I can't turn lines of code into a visual picture when it gets too big. And it just becomes a garbled mess.

Real problem becomes when I have to revisit old code. Even if I do good notes I still cannot remember it.

But give me the same problem and I will devise I near identical solution. But it will be building it up from nothing both times. It takes too many attempts for me to remember. So I'll remember basics. Because they come up enough. But anything niche? If I do it 4 times... The 5th time is no different to the first.
And any specific solution? Yeah if it's even 6 months old.. I can't understand it.

 

[Bassmansam]

I taught myself the basics of programming (and multiple languages), and had a go at making all sorts of stuff.

Then I realised I was absolutely **** at all of it I don't have an engineering mindset.

Yes, anyone can write a few lines of code. Not everyone can structure a program, once it gets larger than a few hundred lines. It's a real engineering skillset and I just get twisted up in knots trying to find the "perfect" and most elegant solution. Every. Single. Time. I'm sure that's partly my crippling OCD at work, tho

I think of it like learning to play guitar. At the beginning i couldn't believe how people could play songs with chords and guitar solos/melody lines. But you start with learnings basic chords and scales and then you build from there and eventually you can start doing both.

It's the same with programming, i did a udemy course and then as part of the project i'm making an app and using a GUI library (PyQt) that was nothing to do with the udemy course. Sure i've had to google things but my challenging my self like this i have really strengthened my certain programming principles such as Object Oriented programming.

Now i can even write my own classes with confidence ect. I am close to finishing this app and i'm also starting a Django course which i will use to make my own website and display this app plus anything else i decide to come up with. My intention is to get dev job next year.
If you don't push through the barrier you won't get anywhere.

 

[Lopéz]

Ive already said this many times....

Although even that isnt true 100% of the time, because a huge swathe of people are simply born into wealth and jobs and connections etc.

I simply hate the "try hard and you will succeed at anything you want to do" mantra. Because it is objectively horse ****.

It's objectively not horse **** because there are thousands, if not millions, of people in the world who have succeeded at what they want to do through little more than hard work and determination.

 

[FoxEye]

I think of it like learning to play guitar. At the beginning i couldn't believe how people could play songs with chords and guitar solos/melody lines. But you start with learnings basic chords and scales and then you build from there and eventually you can start doing both.

It's the same with programming, i did a udemy course and then as part of the project i'm making an app and using a GUI library (PyQt) that was nothing to do with the udemy course. Sure i've had to google things but my challenging my self like this i have really strengthened my certain programming principles such as Object Oriented programming.

Now i can even write my own classes with confidence ect. I am close to finishing this app and i'm also starting a Django course which i will use to make my own website and display this app plus anything else i decide to come up with. My intention is to get dev job next year.
If you don't push through the barrier you won't get anywhere.

I can quite happily write thousands of lines of code, but the structure of that code is beyond useless.

There are many ways to do everything, but only a few ways that look pretty, and feel right.

If you're me, you can endlessly break down functions into smaller functions, combine them back up again, move them around to different modules, start a few of them from scratch every week, etc, etc.

Take a class and split it into two classes, not be happy with either, scrap them both...

Probably it's lack of discipline. But the fact that you can do everything in many different ways leaves me constantly obsessed with changing things around.

 

[413x]

I can quite happily write thousands of lines of code, but the structure of that code is beyond useless.

There are many ways to do everything, but only a few ways that look pretty, and feel right.

If you're me, you can endlessly break down functions into smaller functions, combine them back up again, move them around to different modules, start a few of them from scratch every week, etc, etc.

Take a class and split it into two classes, not be happy with either, scrap them both...

Probably it's lack of discipline. But the fact that you can do everything in many different ways leaves me constantly obsessed with changing things around.

This definitely sounds a bit like perfectionism. I have same issue. "is this best practice?" it's why I had to step away from statistics. There was too much "just accept it" and basically BS in it. Honestly, if you delve deep enough into a lot of published stuff you can find really dodgy stuff.
Couldn't handle it.

At least with code you can get away with "it works" especially a small scale.


But I totally understand your issues. It's why I'll never be amazing at it as well.

 

[Bassmansam]

I can quite happily write thousands of lines of code, but the structure of that code is beyond useless.

There are many ways to do everything, but only a few ways that look pretty, and feel right.

If you're me, you can endlessly break down functions into smaller functions, combine them back up again, move them around to different modules, start a few of them from scratch every week, etc, etc.

Take a class and split it into two classes, not be happy with either, scrap them both...

Probably it's lack of discipline. But the fact that you can do everything in many different ways leaves me constantly obsessed with changing things around.

It seems to me you have enough skill to get a junior dev job or at least be well on the path to it. I understand what you are saying and that does seem like a barrier itself but it does seem like you may be overcomplicating things a bit.