New Canon full frame?

jonneymendoza · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:09

Raymond Lin said:
Are you capable to make a post without link, chart, video or article?

I don't care for the video or tests, like I said, where does that take us?

Have people stopped buying Leica M9? No
Have people stopped stopping buying Nikon lenses? No
Have people stopped buying Canon bodies? No

what is your problem? the guy is backing up his claims with facts gathered from videos, pics and charts etc.

What are you backing your opinions on?

Raymond Lin · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:12

An Exception said:
That's because up until now, Canon didn't offer a 5D that could do it all. You needed two different bodies.

So what?

When did Nikon produce their first FF DSLR?
When did Canon produce their first DSLR.

Now look at those dates and ask the same question again. Bodies come and go, it's a never ending cycle, that's a fact.

Raymond Lin · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:15

jonneymendoza said:
what is your problem? the guy is backing up his claims with facts gathered from videos, pics and charts etc.

What are you backing your opinions on?

My opinion is none of these charts and tests means anything in the real world. People have been taking great photos with it despite the charts says otherwise. My claim is they sold a bucket load and continues to do so. It's not as big a problem as some people are trying to make it out to be.

Nexus · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:18

jonneymendoza said:
+1. finally we have a ff canon camera that can do it all

Actually having used my 5D3 in anger now to shoot some sport, I have noticed that the 7D still pips it on burst speed... infact the 7D will be even better with the new firmware upgrade.

I think I now see the benefit of the 1D series bodies if you are really serious about shooting sports.
Though perhaps I should shoot jpegs for sports rather than RAW.

jonneymendoza · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:19

Raymond Lin said:
My opinion is none of these charts and tests means anything in the real world. People have been taking great photos with it despite the charts says otherwise. My claim is they sold a bucket load and continues to do so. It's not as big a problem as some people are trying to make it out to be.

Whether it means nothing to u in real world is not the point.

the point is the 7d HAS aggressive AA filter. you cannot argue that point one way or the other.

You also cannot argue and say sony crop sensors are no better because they are.

"An Exception" has put facts not opinions but facts out on the table whilst the 7d fanboys have all dismissed it and argued there points with "opinions"

jonneymendoza · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:20

Nexus said:
Actually having used my 5D3 in anger now to shoot some sport, I have noticed that the 7D still pips it on burst speed... infact the 7D will be even better with the new firmware upgrade.

I think I now see the benefit of the 1D series bodies if you are really serious about shooting sports.

next time get the 1dx then!

Raymond Lin · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:28

I am not even disputing AA filter has an effect. Never have. So I don't need to see any evidence or is uses or negative impact on the final image. I knew that before this thing kicked off.

What I want to see, which I yet have and no one has provided, is a direct comparison of a 2 identical photo taken with the 7D sensor, with the same lens, in controlled condition, with and without the AA filter, then we can truly tell its effect and impact.

Until someone can show me that, everything else is neither here or there.

Also, saying a company is incompetent and would never buy into it again for using a strong AA filter? Absurd to say the least, given my examples of mishaps and general conscious decisions made by all manufacturers out there over the years. Canon release at least a new DSLR a year, every year, sometimes more, this is just 1 body out of many and people still dwelling over a 3 years old tech and criticising it...

Baffling.

An Exception · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:46

Raymond Lin said:
So what?

When did Nikon produce their first FF DSLR?
When did Canon produce their first DSLR.

Now look at those dates and ask the same question again. Bodies come and go, it's a never ending cycle, that's a fact.

Stop taking my posts out of context and then trying to twist what 'I' or anyone else are (or are not) saying.

Purgatory said:
Anyway 7D seems to be right for my needs and I have seen some amazing shots with it. I really have to ask if it was that bad why do the pros use the 7D as a 2nd camera or even as a crop to increase the reach of their lenses. Every pro that seems to own a 5D of some sort has one.

An Exception said:
That's because up until now, Canon didn't offer a 5D that could do it all. You needed two different bodies.

An Exception · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:50

jonneymendoza said:
what is your problem? the guy is backing up his claims with facts gathered from videos, pics and charts etc.

What are you backing your opinions on?

+1

You hit the nail on the head.

Purgatory · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:53

jonneymendoza said:
"An Exception" has put facts not opinions but facts out on the table whilst the 7d fanboys have all dismissed it and argued there points with "opinions"

I'm not a fanboy ... two reasons 1 i'm too old to be classed as a boy and 2nd I don't own the camera yet and was only looking at shots people have taken with it and they look great. Also I think people are blowing this out of all proportion in this thread and even to the point they even put me off buying one but I did some research of my own from reviews and users and it clearly is a none issue, clearly the 7D's image quality is not as good as a 5DMK3 which is the nearest camera with the features and spec apart from the Full Frame Sensor. Anyway will buy one soon and let you all know and do some testing on my own and will even take the AA filter off and do some testing if I dare risk breaking a new camera just to see the difference, I will also post the images and make sure they are done 100% right with all settings exactly the same and same picture.

P.S to the people questioning if the rest of us know what Moire is and how it is produced... Seriously we have seen Moire effect forever on TV's and different television systems that cope badly or well with Moire eg , Pal, NTSC, Secam.... :rolleyes:

Take a look here..

http://www.pixel-peeper.com/cameras/?camera=1335

An Exception · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:59

Take a look here..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/3315062783/in/photostream/

jonneymendoza · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:12

Raymond Lin said:
I am not even disputing AA filter has an effect. Never have. So I don't need to see any evidence or is uses or negative impact on the final image. I knew that before this thing kicked off.

What I want to see, which I yet have and no one has provided, is a direct comparison of a 2 identical photo taken with the 7D sensor, with the same lens, in controlled condition, with and without the AA filter, then we can truly tell its effect and impact.

Until someone can show me that, everything else is neither here or there.

Also, saying a company is incompetent and would never buy into it again for using a strong AA filter? Absurd to say the least, given my examples of mishaps and general conscious decisions made by all manufacturers out there over the years. Canon release at least a new DSLR a year, every year, sometimes more, this is just 1 body out of many and people still dwelling over a 3 years old tech and criticising it...

Baffling.

How can u compare a 7d with and without aa? i am 100% certain that you cannot turn the aa off on the 7d because if you can, then its a none issue. like saying "ahh, the 7d can only do auto focus, but wait, it gives u the option to manual focus too if u want!"

You dont need to compare a 7d with aa on and off! simply grab another similar spec camera that came out nearly same time as a 7d and compare.

thats how u compare if a sensor is better then another.

what will u say next? in regards to comparing a 5d3 and d800, thats unfair to right to see if the 5d3 sensor is good? u gunna say something like "compare 5d3 with same shot, setting etc with 22mp and 36mp!

An Exception · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:12

Purgatory said:
Anyway will buy one soon and let you all know and do some testing on my own and will even take the AA filter off and do some testing if I dare risk breaking a new camera just to see the difference, I will also post the images and make sure they are done 100% right with all settings exactly the same and same picture.

"We only need camera body, charged battery and cover letter requesting the conversion type. Turn around is usually 1 or 2 days from receipt. Conversions are done in our Class 100 clean room with ionized air and static control surfaces."

The AA filter also normally includes infra-red filters etc, and removal may mess up the focusing.

http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm

Differences can be seen here with the D700 under identical circumstances. It's the reason why I posted it earlier in the thread, so someone could see an example without breaking their camera's. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine how the 7D would look after removal of the optical aliasing filter.

Purgatory said:
P.S to the people questioning if the rest of us know what Moire is and how it is produced... Seriously we have seen Moire effect forever on TV's and different television systems that cope badly or well with Moire eg , Pal, NTSC, Secam....

Seriously, your speaking for everyone now? :rolleyes:

Purgatory · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:22

Ohh I see so I need to send off a new camera for someone else to maybe break now and void the warranty... geeze... I thought it was something that could be taken out like their pictures on their site with tweezers and put back in place... So the AA filter im guessing is right on the sensor top and they later give you the AA filter they show being added and removed ?

If that is the case then i'm not removing the AA filter. I have software for the images that may look off to correct them ... Called lightroom and photoshop...

If the camera when I get it shows real problems as you guys seem to state I will send it back and get a 5DMk2 instead. I'm not going to void the warranty and maybe cause damage to a new camera and I bet if they break it they won't fix it and say that was the risk you took.

Yes I saw the

http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d700hr.htm

link before and does show the problem well, but again these are the same people selling the device... So are they really doing an impartial and fair test.. or are they trying to flog their AA filters and services ? .. Wonders really... I would like to see someone that has had that done to compare with their camera.

An Exception · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:27

Purgatory said:
Ohh I see so I need to send off a new camera for someone else to maybe break now and void the warranty... geeze... I thought it was something that could be taken out like their pictures on their site with tweezers and put back in place... So the AA filter im guessing is right on the sensor top and they later give you the AA filter they show being added and removed ?

If that is the case then i'm not removing the AA filter. I have software for the images that may look off to correct them ... Called lightroom and photoshop...

If the camera when I get it shows real problems as you guys seem to state I will send it back and get a 5DMk2 instead. I'm not going to void the warranty and maybe cause damage to a new camera and I bet if they break it they won't fix it and say that was the risk you took.

Yes, that is by far the most user friendly solution. You understand from an IQ and workflow perspective why that might be less than ideal though don't you?

Purgatory · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:37

Yes I do but see the problem with a workflow situation, but like I said people making money out of their pictures would just buy a 5DMK3 or even a 1D body, I just want it as a hobby camera and for nice family shots really. The 7D may have a strong AA filter due to it being a crop sensor and of a Bayer sensor design that is densly packed at 18MP. I really don't know... I will wait and see when I get one and see if it will cause me issues and I will do some tests to see how sharp the images are, I will be using prime and L lenses and have other 35mm Film Canon bodies here to test on too to rule out the lenses and may borrow a mates 5DMK2 and he has some 1D bodies too at his work.

Really curious to compare them now and see what is really going on with the 7D because as I said it really does fit the bill perfectly for me and I will be very dissapointed if I find issues with it I didn't expect (I know nothing is perfect). If I can't live with anything with it I will send it back for a 5DMK2 and live with the 5D's slower AF, worse metering and slower burst rate.

cokebottles · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:41

So about this new Canon full frame camera then......

Raymond Lin · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:25

jonneymendoza said:
Whether it means nothing to u in real world is not the point.

That is the absolute point, where else do you take your photographs? I take mine in the real world, you take yours in a lab?

jonneymendoza said:
the point is the 7d HAS aggressive AA filter. you cannot argue that point one way or the other.

Never have, I am even willing to say it is so strong, it is like a smear of Vaseline. So bad that it blinds every user with every use and require a trip to the optician.

jonneymendoza said:
You also cannot argue and say sony crop sensors are no better because they are.

"An Exception" has put facts not opinions but facts out on the table whilst the 7d fanboys have all dismissed it and argued there points with "opinions"

So where does that take us? Back to the real world.

Let's put it like this.

The 7D is so bad that it is a health hazard and there was a recall, it does not exist anymore.

cokebottles said:
So about this new Canon full frame camera then......

Lets

Mint_Sauce · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:42

While I do think it's important overall for people to push camera tech forwards and be concerned with this kinda stuff it's also very important to remember that great photography can be done with the most basic of cameras.

There's a lot of very old artwork that's been damaged and restored, is yellowing etc but thousands of people flock to appreciate it and don't get caught up in those details.

What I'm trying to say is a lot of people need to take a step back from the technical perfection of their cameras and buy more on the feel of a camera and how it allows them to shoot rather than if one camera in certain conditions looks slightly sharper at 100%.

Just sayin!

Raymond Lin · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:46

Mint_Sauce said:
While I do think it's important overall for people to push camera tech forwards and be concerned with this kinda stuff it's also very important to remember that great photography can be done with the most basic of cameras.

There's a lot of very old artwork that's been damaged and restored, is yellowing etc but thousands of people flock to appreciate it and don't get caught up in those details.

What I'm trying to say is a lot of people need to take a step back from the technical perfection of their cameras and buy more on the feel of a camera and how it allows them to shoot rather than if one camera in certain conditions looks slightly sharper at 100%.

Just sayin!

But........but.......but, another camera from and different manufacturer can take sharper photos when you zoomed in at 100%, and they can prove it in a lab with charts !

Let's face it, the 7D is a terrible camera, you might as well throw money in the bin.

Lets all buy shares in Nikon !