New Canon full frame?

[An Exception]

That is the absolute point, where else do you take your photographs? I take mine in the real world, you take yours in a lab?

What translates in the lab.. translates in the real world.

The only question is, what to you need in the real world, for me it wasn't muddy images that require working on in post.

 

[An Exception]

But........but.......but, another camera from and different manufacturer can take sharper photos when you zoomed in at 100%, and they can prove it in a lab with charts !



Let's face it, the 7D is a terrible camera, you might as well throw money in the bin.

Lets all buy shares in Nikon !

I respect you and your work Raymond but if you can't engage in a logical discussion to better the understanding you have of the tools you use, free from emotional outbursts, then maybe this isn't the thread for you.

As JM said, you don't seem to back up any of your opinions with any tangible evidence. They just seem fuelled by emotion.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Yes I do but see the problem with a workflow situation, but like I said people making money out of their pictures would just buy a 5DMK3 or even a 1D body, I just want it as a hobby camera and for nice family shots really. The 7D may have a strong AA filter due to it being a crop sensor and of a Bayer sensor design that is densly packed at 18MP. I really don't know... I will wait and see when I get one and see if it will cause me issues and I will do some tests to see how sharp the images are, I will be using prime and L lenses and have other 35mm Film Canon bodies here to test on too to rule out the lenses and may borrow a mates 5DMK2 and he has some 1D bodies too at his work.

Really curious to compare them now and see what is really going on with the 7D because as I said it really does fit the bill perfectly for me and I will be very dissapointed if I find issues with it I didn't expect (I know nothing is perfect). If I can't live with anything with it I will send it back for a 5DMK2 and live with the 5D's slower AF, worse metering and slower burst rate.

Listen, the aa filter has absolutely nothing to do with the camera being crop or ff etc

 

[Raymond Lin]

I don't need evidence to admit that 7D has a strong AA filter. I believe that you've done that for all of us.

What crucial evidence is missing is how strong is that filter, on that camera, with the software built into that camera.

You can say other cameras with similar sensor with AA filters, but if you are going to be stringent about it, this argument fails on the first point that it isn't the same sensor with a weaker filter. Your argument is a using another sensor with a weaker filter gives sharper photos.......

It's like between X+Y=Z and A+B=C.

You are trying to give me evidence, but all I see is guess work.

Then again, that is beside the point, I have already conceded on the strong AA filter part.

All I have been saying and continue to try to say, stop looking at charts and go take some pictures.

One can get so overwhelmingly involved with these pixel peeping it will get close to OCD. Where does that take us to taking a better photo? It doesn't. Looking at the bigger picture here, a photo is made up of a lot of things, technical aspect is only a part of it. Lots of old B&W photos are grainy but they are great photographs, they are not great photographs because they are grainy, they are great photographs because it connects with its audience. One can argue that the camera used at that time was the pinnacle of the technology then, which is true, so was the 7D when it was released, but it is not anymore, it is 3 years old. The 5Diii is better than the Canon 1Ds mk3 in a lot of ways, hell, even the mkii is better than the 1Dsmk3 in terms of IQ.

Granted the foundation need to be strong but is the 7D's AA filter that terrible it makes a photo unusable? If one is already invested in Canon sell up and jump ship to a D7000 because of this? (the next model is close as suggested by its life cycle for a XD series camera). These choices are made on a case by case bases, it is unrealistic to take a broad brush approach and apply it to everyone. Some people like yourself are more technical minded who obviously reads all these tests and reviews on the technical aspect and decide it isn't the right upgrade path for you. Which is fine, and you got your D700 and happy with the switch and it is all good.

What isn't quite black and white as you make it out to be is how everything else come together and your experience isn't applicable to everyone. I for example can't imagine twisting the lens on "backwards".

We are talking about 1 body here, lets be reminded again, a 3 years old body. How many cameras have been released since and how many will be released in the next 3 years?

Lets care a little less on gear, care a little more on photographs.

 

[dannyjo22]

I've enjoyed reading this I have to say, both both sides. The technical and practical arguments. I would though like ray love to see a direct comparison of the 7d with and without the filter. Just for my own weird curiousity.

As said the 7d is though a camera that's had an incredibly long life. I've read also one of the most popular bodies they have had. Yet this is the first thread or comments I've ever seen on the strength of the filter so generally I have to assume people aren't that bothered.

My work mate has a 7d and upgrade from a 550 and it's interesting that he has mentioned to me his dissapointment in sharpness compared to what he was getting on the 550.

Anyway going through my gear and prices to change I think this thread has helped me decide to just stick with the brand I've already invested in. It's not like I'm making money from pictures

I'm just itching to give canon some money to upgrade from my 50d but the wait for a new 7 series or this rumoured FF is killing me

 

[cokebottles]

Lets get back on track with some useless speculation about the new DSLRS....

My thoughts are the 70D will continue in the vein of the 60D with the slightly smaller plastic body. I would maybe expect touch screen here. Seen as the 650D now has 9 cross-type focus points I would expect an upgrade in focusing system; maybe 19point from the outgoing 7D. New APS-C sensor. I would expect this to be the flagship (semi-pro) APS-C camera from Canon.

I think all the Canon pro cameras will be full frame. So I expect the 7D replacement to be full frame. Rather than guess the specs of this camera; I think it would be more logical to look at the 5D3 spec list and guess what it WONT have from that. Firstly I doubt the sensor will be the same. Definitely wont have the 5D3 AF system, although Im hoping for at least 9 cross-type points here. I hope its alloy bodied too, even if its not thoroughly weather sealed. Im expecting a pop up flash too. Basically an amalgamation of 5D2 and 7D specs.

 

[dannyjo22]

I just cannot see them putting the top crop if it becomes the 70d in a plastic body coke bottles. Purely because so many people have the 7d, it sold so well and so many people still want a top end crop and the crop factor. I think putting it in a cheaper body as the top crop would be suicidal against a top crop that has sold so very well

I think you will be right the 7D will become the cheaper FF but surely then the new top crop can't be in a worse body than a 50D or 7D?

 

[An Exception]

I don't need evidence to admit that 7D has a strong AA filter. I believe that you've done that for all of us.

What crucial evidence is missing is how strong is that filter, on that camera, with the software built into that camera.

You can say other cameras with similar sensor with AA filters, but if you are going to be stringent about it, this argument fails on the first point that it isn't the same sensor with a weaker filter. Your argument is a using another sensor with a weaker filter gives sharper photos.......

It's like between X+Y=Z and A+B=C.

You are trying to give me evidence, but all I see is guess work.

Examples have been shown of the effect of the AA filter on an identical body D700. The exact 'strength' or the percentage blur the 7D uses is unknown outside of Canon to my knowledge.. While it would be handy to prevent long discussions like this, that knowledge isn't exactly pivotal or important in this discussion. The 7D can be shown to be softer than other camera's, it is either acceptable or not to a user. All this other 'exact' strength guff your insisting on is simply not important.

Then again, that is beside the point, I have already conceded on the strong AA filter part.

All I have been saying and continue to try to say, stop looking at charts and go take some pictures.

The only time I look at test charts these days is when helping others. I understand how my gear performs and where and how I can get the results that are to my satisfaction.

One can get so overwhelmingly involved with these pixel peeping it will get close to OCD. Where does that take us to taking a better photo? It doesn't. Looking at the bigger picture here, a photo is made up of a lot of things, technical aspect is only a part of it. Lots of old B&W photos are grainy but they are great photographs, they are not great photographs because they are grainy, they are great photographs because it connects with its audience. One can argue that the camera used at that time was the pinnacle of the technology then, which is true, so was the 7D when it was released, but it is not anymore, it is 3 years old. The 5Diii is better than the Canon 1Ds mk3 in a lot of ways, hell, even the mkii is better than the 1Dsmk3 in terms of IQ.

Granted the foundation need to be strong but is the 7D's AA filter that terrible it makes a photo unusable?... and too many other brand war subjects to respond to.

Firstly it's not about usable or unusable photo's. That view is too narrow. It's about choosing the best tool for the job. The tool that is going to help you get that photo to begin with, and then the tool that will get it at an acceptable standard.
As for a 'real world' scenario, why do nature photographers shoot with a 7D in the first place?
REACH.

If you consider in the Nex example, the nex probably looks better at 100% than the 7D does at 50%. In the 'real world' this extra crop ability on what is already a cropped sensor will give you 2x the reach. In terms of reach, that would be almost like using a 400-800mm F4 Zoom, rather than a 400mm prime.

For me personally, I only carry 3 lenses, my longest lens is only 85mm (F1.4). It's nice to be able to crop down to a 135mm view, and get similar to what a 135mm (F2) would give me.

Lets care a little less on gear, care a little more on photographs.

Caring (or being interested) about gear or photographs is not mutually exclusive.
But having said that, I always post the results from my shoot's, Id enjoy seeing more of yours.

 

[cokebottles]

I just cannot see them putting the top crop if it becomes the 70d in a plastic body coke bottles. Purely because so many people have the 7d, it sold so well and so many people still want a top end crop and the crop factor. I think putting it in a cheaper body as the top crop would be suicidal against a top crop that has sold so very well

I think you will be right the 7D will become the cheaper FF but surely then the new top crop can't be in a worse body than a 50D or 7D?

My train of thought is that APS-C is being demoted in a way to not serving anything passed the enthusiast/semi-pro market. I say this because now with the Canon mirrorless system getting an APS-C sensor and basically identical specs as the 650D. Im sure a slightly higher level mirrorless body will come in with specs that beat that. As such I dont see how they will justify to consumers that their £1500 xD body can have a smiliar sensor to what is in their mirrorless range.

As I said I think all pro bodies will be full frame. The only two advantages I can think of having APS-C in pro bodies, was the use of EF-S lenses (but thats not an advantage to any pros), and crop factor (for sports and wildlife). But perhaps now with high MP count, there might just be a button or menu option where you can knock the sensor output down to APS-C size. Thats dealt with that. Who knows whether Canon will actually be as proactive as that. But I do think there is something in the whole APS-C not being in the pro bodies any more.

Edit: wishful thinking would also see the 70D go back to the form-factor of the 40D/50D alloy bodies before it.

 

[jonneymendoza]

My train of thought is that APS-C is being demoted in a way to not serving anything passed the enthusiast/semi-pro market. I say this because now with the Canon mirrorless system getting an APS-C sensor and basically identical specs as the 650D. Im sure a slightly higher level mirrorless body will come in with specs that beat that. As such I dont see how they will justify to consumers that their £1500 xD body can have a smiliar sensor to what is in their mirrorless range.

As I said I think all pro bodies will be full frame. The only two advantages I can think of having APS-C in pro bodies, was the use of EF-S lenses (but thats not an advantage to any pros), and crop factor (for sports and wildlife). But perhaps now with high MP count, there might just be a button or menu option where you can knock the sensor output down to APS-C size. Thats dealt with that. Who knows whether Canon will actually be as proactive as that. But I do think there is something in the whole APS-C not being in the pro bodies any more.

Edit: wishful thinking would also see the 70D go back to the form-factor of the 40D/50D alloy bodies before it.

the 7d is the real 60d in disquise

 

[Nexus]

All I have been saying and continue to try to say, stop looking at charts and go take some pictures.

This.

 

[Rojin]

Whether it means nothing to u in real world is not the point.

the point is the 7d HAS aggressive AA filter. you cannot argue that point one way or the other.

You also cannot argue and say sony crop sensors are no better because they are.

"An Exception" has put facts not opinions but facts out on the table whilst the 7d fanboys have all dismissed it and argued there points with "opinions"

What a surprise the thread has descended into "fanboy'ism"...

There are very few facts actually being displayed in this thread, just peoples opinions or linked opinions of other people not even partaking in the thread. Search long and hard enough on the 'net and you'll find anything you want to backup any opinion you want.

The 7D has an AA filter, it's something that has been know since it was released years ago. What's also known for almost as long is that it makes very little difference to the output from the camera. Some on here are making out that it's a massive problem and the 7D isn't even suitable for web output or printing at 6x4 the issue is so bad. This is plainly not the case, the 7D is the best 1.6x camera that Canon currently produce and still outsells it competitors. Also it still produces output better than cropping from the 5D3, as was also shown against the 5D2. Canon wildlife shooters still like the 1D4 for the next level of AF, but many are also using the 7D without issue.

Yes newer cameras with better sensor tech are now available, not really a surprise that though is it? That's how technology works. It'll be interesting to see what Canon brings out for its next performance crop camera.

That people in this thread seriously believe they know better than Canon when it comes to camera development, and that Canon made an error, is absolutely hilarious. Canon released a camera with the feature set and technology that they priced and targeted to a market. Simple as. If you don't want the features, or to pay the price then you are not part of that intended market. They didn't get it wrong, the 7D sold in boatloads, Canon made a lot money.

 

[cokebottles]

the 7d is the real 60d in disquise

I agree. They could afford to include a better AF system and increased continuous drive speed that in previous xxD models; but they wanted to label is a pro camera and charge a pro price. As such the 60D had to fit in between this new pro body and the xxxD line up; hence the gimped size and plastic body.

I hope they continue with a full size metal body, albeit back in the xxD series.

I just want a full frame camera like the 5D2 but with a slightly better AF system.

Also slightly off topic here: One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in upgrading camera from my 450D is a bigger viewfinder. From playing with a 7D. 5D2, and 5D3 in Heathrow duty free - the size of the image in the viewfinder all looked the same to me. Is that incorrect? What parameter on the spec sheet does this equate to? I want a massive view finder!!

 

[D.P.]

I am not even disputing AA filter has an effect. Never have. So I don't need to see any evidence or is uses or negative impact on the final image. I knew that before this thing kicked off.

What I want to see, which I yet have and no one has provided, is a direct comparison of a 2 identical photo taken with the 7D sensor, with the same lens, in controlled condition, with and without the AA filter, then we can truly tell its effect and impact.

Until someone can show me that, everything else is neither here or there.

Also, saying a company is incompetent and would never buy into it again for using a strong AA filter? Absurd to say the least, given my examples of mishaps and general conscious decisions made by all manufacturers out there over the years. Canon release at least a new DSLR a year, every year, sometimes more, this is just 1 body out of many and people still dwelling over a 3 years old tech and criticising it...

Baffling.

I would love to find some photos taken from a 7D with the AA filter removed but I don't have time to trawl through google. I also doubt many people remove their AA filter because it is well known that it has a very strong AA filter so anyone wanting crisp images and strong microcontrast wont buy th 7D anyway. Removing the AA filter is typically done for landscape users, it was very common on the Nikon D3x.

With the arrival of the D800 and D800E there are lots of comparison photos, however the vanilla D800 already has a very weak AA filter to the difference is not vast but it pleasant (conversely scenarios where the D800E exhibits moire will tend to produce moire on the plain D800).


Now I know you are going to completely ignore what you read here because you seem to think that since I personally didn't design the 7D sensor let alone go out with beers with the head engineer that i am clueless and this is a pointless comparison. Funnily enough I know the D800 has a higher DR than the 5DMKIII even although I didn't design the sensors for both cameras, I know the Canon 85 1.2L has a wider aperture than the Nikon 85 1.4G even although I didn't design either lens, and I also know that 1 is less than 2 even although I a not a mathematician.



Lastly, I clearly and explicitly stated I don't believe the Canon engineers who designed he 7D were incompetent - the AA filter was designed to be strong on purpose. there are not many reason why one would do that, video moire or product placement being the 2 most likely. Why is that so hard to believe.

 

[Nexus]

Also slightly off topic here: One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in upgrading camera from my 450D is a bigger viewfinder. From playing with a 7D. 5D2, and 5D3 in Heathrow duty free - the size of the image in the viewfinder all looked the same to me. Is that incorrect? What parameter on the spec sheet does this equate to? I want a massive view finder!!

5D2 has a 98% coverage viewfinder while the 5D3 and 7D are 100%. The image is bigger though because of the size and type of the prism. When I look at my old 350D it does amaze me how small the viewfinder is.

 

[cokebottles]

5D2 has a 98% coverage viewfinder while the 5D3 and 7D are 100%. The image is bigger though because of the size and type of the prism. When I look at my old 350D it does amaze me how small the viewfinder is.

I understood the %coverage parameter... But I expected the 7D viewfinder to be smaller than both the 5D models, due to the sensor size. To me they looked the same, or very similar. If I am correct that would mean the 7D viewfinder has more magnification. Ultimately is there a way of knowing the size of a camera's viewfinder without handling it in person.

For this new FF camera, this would something I would like to know when they release it.

 

[Nexus]

The 7D is supposed to have 1x magnification in the viewfinder. Not sure about the 5D. Either way, I look through both of them and there isn't that much difference.

 

[James J]

What a surprise the thread has descended into "fanboy'ism"...

There are very few facts actually being displayed in this thread, just peoples opinions or linked opinions of other people not even partaking in the thread. Search long and hard enough on the 'net and you'll find anything you want to backup any opinion you want.

The 7D has an AA filter, it's something that has been know since it was released years ago. What's also known for almost as long is that it makes very little difference to the output from the camera. Some on here are making out that it's a massive problem and the 7D isn't even suitable for web output or printing at 6x4 the issue is so bad. This is plainly not the case, the 7D is the best 1.6x camera that Canon currently produce and still outsells it competitors. Also it still produces output better than cropping from the 5D3, as was also shown against the 5D2. Canon wildlife shooters still like the 1D4 for the next level of AF, but many are also using the 7D without issue.

Yes newer cameras with better sensor tech are now available, not really a surprise that though is it? That's how technology works. It'll be interesting to see what Canon brings out for its next performance crop camera.

That people in this thread seriously believe they know better than Canon when it comes to camera development, and that Canon made an error, is absolutely hilarious. Canon released a camera with the feature set and technology that they priced and targeted to a market. Simple as. If you don't want the features, or to pay the price then you are not part of that intended market. They didn't get it wrong, the 7D sold in boatloads, Canon made a lot money.

Extremely well put. Said it far better than I would have.

Why is the 7D even being discussed anyway, especially in this depth? This thread is about a rumoured brand new full frame camera from canon, not a 3 year old 1.6x crop body :S Its this sort of garbage which makes me think twice before posting any threads on this forum anymore as it just devolves into "my wang is bigger than yours" arguments.

 

[An Exception]

Extremely well put. Said it far better than I would have.

Why is the 7D even being discussed anyway, especially in this depth? This thread is about a rumoured brand new full frame camera from canon, not a 3 year old 1.6x crop body :S Its this sort of garbage which makes me think twice before posting any threads on this forum anymore as it just devolves into "my wang is bigger than yours" arguments.

Really? I don't remember you posting any such threads that devolved into "my wang is bigger than yours"?

I think the 7D is being discussed because this entry FF is suspected of being it's replacement, so seems fairly logical to me...

 

[James J]

Really? I don't remember you posting any such threads that devolved into "my wang is bigger than yours"?

I think the 7D is being discussed because this entry FF is suspected of being it's replacement, so seems fairly logical to me...

You would say that though, as you are the person who loves derailing threads for a start. Its fine saying that the 7D might be replaced by a FF alternative, yet pages and pages of nonsense about an AA filter isn't exactly on topic is it...