NHS=Negligent Health Service

[Minstadave]

I've just been reading about that in the Guardian.

Devon woman with ME asked GP to help her ‘get enough food to live’, inquest hears

Maeve Boothby O’Neill, 27, was admitted to Royal Devon and Exeter hospital before her death in 2021

www.theguardian.com

It looks like the main blame lies with the hospital. The GP's kept sending her in. But the hospital kept discharging her.

This isn't a good sign. Because ME/CFS is closely linked to Long Covid. Many of the regular tests don't pick up any problems. Only specialised tests do. Yet I suspect due to a lack of medical knowledge, especially about these immune conditions, the doctors just dismiss it.

I'll be happy when AI starts diagnosing people. Because the amount of intellectually lazy doctors there are is needlessly costing lives.

Why would someone become a doctor, see someone not fit and healthy, yet give up helping when the standard tests come back clear? Where is the medical curiosity?

CFS/ME is an absolute minefield. There is no test, no well recognised treatment and no understanding of what the disease is. There is a very vocal lobby that actively disrupts research.

I'd be suprised if AI offers any benefits in this area.

 

[do_ron_ron]

I'll be happy when AI starts diagnosing people. Because the amount of intellectually lazy doctors there are is needlessly costing lives.

Showing you know nothing about AI. Whose information get used? The same doctors you are denegrating. AI is not some magical wand, at the moment it also throws up a lot of BS.

 

[Werewolf]

If anyone gets asked can they act absolutely disgusted and outraged and say "How dare you! how dare you" in a greta thunberg voice before saying "fat shaming in the NHS absolutely disgusting" and lodge a complaint

how come they can likely upset a large part of the population to not hurt a few peoples feelings?

As the Wise Eminem once said "I don't gotta play pretend, it's you I make believe "

IIRC when doing x-rays the default has tended to be to ask that question of anyone listed as female for longer than i've been alive.

and it's not "fat shaming" given that a foetus is from memory most vulnerable to the x-ray before there is anything visible externally, and avoiding actual physical harm overrides upset feelings, although pretty much anyone who is at all reasonable knows that the "could you be pregnant" question is a tick box that the person doing the test already knows the likely answer to but it is still asked because there is a real risk in not asking it routinely.
It's like the whole thing where some places will ask for proof of age even if you're fairly obviously well over 18, it reduces the risk of the person doing the test/transaction making a mistake of judgement by actually asking the question rather than making an assumption.

IIRC my father got asked it before a CT scan, he and the radiographer both laughed about it as he's both obviously far too old for pregnancy, and a man.

 

[Mr Badger]

Showing you know nothing about AI. Whose information get used? The same doctors you are denegrating. AI is not some magical wand, at the moment it also throws up a lot of BS.

s

Isn't that rather dependent on the specific task? My understanding is that AI can be great at something like analysing scan results, when there is a sufficient database of positive and negative scans for it to learn from. But that's not to say that an AI system would necessarily be best placed to decide whether a patient should have the scan in the first place, or exactly what treatment they should receive if the scan is flagged as being positive.

 

[GGizmo]

Showing you know nothing about AI. Whose information get used? The same doctors you are denegrating. AI is not some magical wand, at the moment it also throws up a lot of BS.

What qualifications do you have in AI before you start talking down to others?

The AI of the future, which is what I was talking about, wouldn't be getting the information from the same doctors. It would be getting information from the entire medical wealth of knowledge.

I have 2 rare genetic conditions. 99% of doctors wouldnt diagnose them because the chances are they don't even know the conditions exists.

At the moment rare conditions are diagnosed if you happen to find a doctor/consultant with a specific interest in the subject that goes beyond regular expectation.

About 5 years ago I saw a Professor of Endocrinology and Gastroenterology. He is at the top of his profession in the UK, specifically focusing on IBS. He says some of his patients have seen many gastroenterolists, and been in the health care system for over 5 years, before they see him. If AI was functioning his wealth of information would be easily available in an easy to read format to ANY doctor, including GP's.

I would say there is a good chance there are millions of people walking around with genetic conditions that have never been diagnosed. Because most doctors don't read books, especially these days.

We see how clueless most doctors are with their lack of knowledge with long covid, even though there as been over 24,000 peer reviewed papers about it.

 

[Minstadave]

We see how clueless most doctors are with their lack of knowledge with long covid, even though there as been over 24,000 peer reviewed papers about it.

Long COVID is also another total minefield for the same reason as ME/CFS, there's lots of papers full of conflicting information, no clear mechanism, an array of symptoms and no recognised test or treatmen, lots of overlap with CFS/ME. All the long COVID clinics are shutting down.

 

[Parsley]

After losing my dad recently I have both positive and negative feelings with regards to the treatment he received over a two weekish period.

A&E was a 12 hour wait for a bed. It was what it was, at that point he was only fatigued anyway. We all know A&E is stretched and at least we weren't sat there overnight. He was at least triaged very quickly.

As for his time in hospital, I think the staff themselves, the individuals, were all fantastic, all bar one male locum nurse who treated him awfully, called him disgusting, made him feel really small, demeaned. The rest of the staff on the ward reacted really well when dealing with said nurse though, he was removed from the ward within a very short window of time, and judging by the reaction of the other nurses, ward manager and the on call doctor there will be repercussions later. Why he is a nurse on a gastroenterology ward if he can't cope with what is required, I'll never understand.

The health care assistants get a particular shoutout for doing everything in their power to keep him comfortable whilst trying to keep the mood light in a respectful way. They were very good with me as well, I spent most of the last 2-3 days on the ward with him (individual room) and I was made to feel very welcome.

My biggest complaint is more a funding issue than anything. Towards the end when my dad required palliative care he was in a huge amount of pain. Liver failure is not a pretty way to go, he had internal bleeding causing strokes and other things. The palliative care team, due to demand and a lack of staff, took a long... long time to arrive (or it felt like a very long time), and he suffered awfully overnight. When they arrived they were fantastic and had things sorted out as quickly as they could, understanding my own frustration that I had been able to do very little to help him with the pain (I was very aware that it was no ones fault, the frustration wasn't aimed at anyone but it was difficult to not aim it).

I do find it laughable that the palliative care doctors fuss and plan so much, sorting out a treatment plan when giving pain relief and sedation to someone in their final days / hours... so the medication (in combination with what is already killing them) doesn't kill them. When it gets to the point my dad was at it would have been a true mercy. But I'm aware of the rules and all the potential moral pitfalls with all of that. It's just a shame that adds extra time to the needed palliative care being administered.

He was comfortable when the time came though, I'm grateful for that.

I'll add that he was a complicated case and we'll never know what caused the liver failure beyond it being autoimmune hepatitis. He recovered from it once, then it came back and he tried to ignore it, left it too late to seek treatment, they couldn't do the required tests in the end as he couldn't clot, and it was likely too late anyway. I'm more frustrated with him than I can really express. He survived two heart attacks and nearly had liver failure, stopped drinking, treated himself better... and yet he ignored symptoms. I'd call anyone else doing that an idiot. I'm sure I've massively simplified the autoimmune hepatitis, but he did recover once and his bloodwork did return to "normal".

Sorry if it's a bit of a ramble, it's helpful sorting it all out in my head.

 

[do_ron_ron]

s

Isn't that rather dependent on the specific task? My understanding is that AI can be great at something like analysing scan results, when there is a sufficient database of positive and negative scans for it to learn from. But that's not to say that an AI system would necessarily be best placed to decide whether a patient should have the scan in the first place, or exactly what treatment they should receive if the scan is flagged as being positive.

AI systems depend on the info that is inputed and the algorithm used. It is the old computing saying - rubbish in, rubbish out. AI will be positive with careful planning. Like other computing areas, AI is still in its infancy and mistakes will be made.
Yes, AI systems will be used in inappropriate areas and the usual excuse of 'computer error' will be used.

 

[do_ron_ron]

What qualifications do you have in AI before you start talking down to others?

The AI of the future, which is what I was talking about, wouldn't be getting the information from the same doctors. It would be getting information from the entire medical wealth of knowledge.

I have 2 rare genetic conditions. 99% of doctors wouldnt diagnose them because the chances are they don't even know the conditions exists.

At the moment rare conditions are diagnosed if you happen to find a doctor/consultant with a specific interest in the subject that goes beyond regular expectation.

About 5 years ago I saw a Professor of Endocrinology and Gastroenterology. He is at the top of his profession in the UK, specifically focusing on IBS. He says some of his patients have seen many gastroenterolists, and been in the health care system for over 5 years, before they see him. If AI was functioning his wealth of information would be easily available in an easy to read format to ANY doctor, including GP's.

I would say there is a good chance there are millions of people walking around with genetic conditions that have never been diagnosed. Because most doctors don't read books, especially these days.

We see how clueless most doctors are with their lack of knowledge with long covid, even though there as been over 24,000 peer reviewed papers about it.

AI systems depend on the info that is inputed and the algorithm used. You have answered your own question with your condition. If a condition, as in your case is rare or new, there will be a lot of wrong information around. AI is just a computing system and will work with available data. If the wrong/misleading data is used you will get wrong results.

 

[Dis86]

Valdo Calocane: Doctor warned Nottingham attacker 'could kill'

The concern that Valdo Calocane could "end up killing someone" appears in a summary of medical records shared with BBC Panorama.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well, this is the biggy today. A doctor raised concerns he would kill and absolutely nothing was done. Think it shows how much of an utter shambles mental health is in but the link(s) between medical, mental and criminal just seem to be non-existent.

As always, lessons will be learned.

 

[GGizmo]

AI systems depend on the info that is inputed and the algorithm used. You have answered your own question with your condition. If a condition, as in your case is rare or new, there will be a lot of wrong information around. AI is just a computing system and will work with available data. If the wrong/misleading data is used you will get wrong results.

I agree that we have to be careful what information is put into the system.

I suspect eventually it'll operate like Google were they send spider bots around the Internet cataloguing medical and research sites.

I think a lot of information will become available as suggestions that most doctors have no idea about.

I think the danger of AI, like with other new technology, is humans become over reliant on it.

 

[Scort]

CFS/ME is an absolute minefield. There is no test, no well recognised treatment and no understanding of what the disease is. There is a very vocal lobby that actively disrupts research that doesn't suit their agenda.

An in-law 'suffers' with such ailments - has done for several decades, to the point that they have spent the last 8 or 9 years out of employment and the last 3 or so, trying to claim PIP. But the thing that always throws a light on it all, imo, is that as soon as this person has the chance to do something they like (cinema or go shopping, or out for a meal/socialising) they suddenly have bags of energy and are suddenly fine; even if they had claimed a "flare up" earlier that day.

My Wife works in a medical profession, and there does indeed seem to be a whole lot of speculation over anyone claiming fatigue, or fibromyalgia - it seems that the base line is that whoever is claiming it, is simply suffering an issue they've concocted in their head. It sounds harsh to me, but at the same time, these days.... I fully expect that with people hopping onto bandwagons left and right, there's a pretty good chance that a fair few claimants are full of ****

If there are genuine people suffering, like the one in the story - then of course they need help. But as you rightly say, it's a minefield! And personally, I think there are too many people that will happily exploit the fact it cannot be disproved. I'm sure at time we all struggles with aches and pains, and not wanting to get up in the mornings; but that's life eh.

 

[Dis86]

An in-law 'suffers' with such ailments - has done for several decades, to the point that they have spent the last 8 or 9 years out of employment and the last 3 or so, trying to claim PIP. But the thing that always throws a light on it all, imo, is that as soon as this person has the chance to do something they like (cinema or go shopping, or out for a meal/socialising) they suddenly have bags of energy and are suddenly fine; even if they had claimed a "flare up" earlier that day.

My Wife works in a medical profession, and there does indeed seem to be a whole lot of speculation over anyone claiming fatigue, or fibromyalgia - it seems that the base line is that whoever is claiming it, is simply suffering an issue they've concocted in their head. It sounds harsh to me, but at the same time, these days.... I fully expect that with people hopping onto bandwagons left and right, there's a pretty good chance that a fair few claimants are full of ****

If there are genuine people suffering, like the one in the story - then of course they need help. But as you rightly say, it's a minefield! And personally, I think there are too many people that will happily exploit the fact it cannot be disproved. I'm sure at time we all struggles with aches and pains, and not wanting to get up in the mornings; but that's life eh.

Exact same in my experience with family members too. Including a cousin who has 'constant panic attacks' brought about by anxiety yet regularly flies away on holiday paid for by their benefits with no ill effect. Oh then posts photos of themselves on every app going whilst claiming they can't stand being around strangers.

 

[arknor]

AI systems depend on the info that is inputed and the algorithm used. It is the old computing saying - rubbish in, rubbish out. AI will be positive with careful planning. Like other computing areas, AI is still in its infancy and mistakes will be made.
Yes, AI systems will be used in inappropriate areas and the usual excuse of 'computer error' will be used.

AI's already being used in some hospitals

even for patient management or whatever you call it

Tampa General will use AIP to encode its clinical expertise into eligibility and prioritization decisions on the frontlines, to ensure patients receive the right care in the right place as quickly and safely possible. Its new Hospital Sync application suite and insights, powered by Palantir software, aims to set the standard for optimal care coordination nationwide.



Tampa General Hospital and Palantir Technologies started working together in 2021, when TGH implemented Palantir’s Foundry software to revolutionize health care management, optimize operational efficiency and enhance patient outcomes. Since then, Tampa General has expanded its use of Palantir’s software from one to more than a dozen use cases across the health system, contributing to meaningful, measurable improvements in patient care. For example,

Tampa General cut by 83% the amount of time required to place patien
and post anesthesia care unit (PACU) holds declined 28%.
In addition, the mean length of stay for sepsis patients went down 30%.

NHS AI test spots tiny cancers missed by doctors

An AI tool called Mia found missed breast cancer symptoms in the scans of 11 women during an NHS test.

www.bbc.co.uk

NHS used AI to detect cancer otherwise missed

I bet AI can spot fractures, cancers etc a hell of a lot faster and more accurate than any human can.

Those types of models don't get biased data built into them.


I had 2 blood tests in the last week, a robot could easily have stuck a needle in my arm and collected the blood without the need to book a slot with a nurse.

The first nurse was great no pain , second one just jabbed it straight in without asking nay questions because she was 20 mins behind already by 10:30

She didn't even confirm my identity, date of birth or anything.


I was at the GP on the 6th and have a US scan booked with the hospital on the 15th.

So I guess once you get past the gate keeping surgeries the NHS seems to be somewhat functional.

Also waiting on a date for a endoscopy, GP said If I don't hear back within 2 weeks I should contact the surgery again.

 

[Mr Badger]

AI's already being used in some hospitals

even for patient management or whatever you call it

NHS AI test spots tiny cancers missed by doctors

An AI tool called Mia found missed breast cancer symptoms in the scans of 11 women during an NHS test.

www.bbc.co.uk

NHS used AI to detect cancer otherwise missed

I bet AI can spot fractures, cancers etc a hell of a lot faster and more accurate than any human can.

Those types of models don't get biased data built into them.


I had 2 blood tests in the last week, a robot could easily have stuck a needle in my arm and collected the blood without the need to book a slot with a nurse.

The first nurse was great no pain , second one just jabbed it straight in without asking nay questions because she was 20 mins behind already by 10:30

She didn't even confirm my identity, date of birth or anything

She didn't even ask whether you were pregnant?

 

[do_ron_ron]

I had 2 blood tests in the last week, a robot could easily have stuck a needle in my arm and collected the blood without the need to book a slot with a nurse.

Actually no. Due to age, type of illness, etc, etc peoples viens are sometimes not easily acessed. This is an example of when a robot could not be used.

 

[arknor]

Actually no. Due to age, type of illness, etc, etc peoples viens are sometimes not easily acessed. This is an example of when a robot could not be used.

yea true but GP could take a quick check before he refers you anyway..

I'd happily let a robot take some vials from me.

Doesn't need a tourniquet to even make mine visible, I'd imagine thats a large majority of the population.

She didn't even ask whether you were pregnant?

No but I could talk to my gp about getting the coil or something.

Sounds like there's a real risk these days that I could become pregnant and I certainly wouldn't want that.

(oh wait I know how that sounds, its not that)

 

[VincentHanna]

I don't have a huge amount of experience with the NHS as I (touch wood) I've been fairly healthy, but here's something I've noticed the two times I've used it in the last 4 years.

Specialists and surgeons seem to Waltz in when they want!

December 2020 - I had surgery for removal of (what turned out to be) basal cell carcinoma from my head. I was told to be there at 7 a.m. and assumed I would be one of the first to be seen. The surgeon didn't even arrive at the building until 9 a.m. so I've no idea why I had to be there so early. It's not like there was loads of pre-op stuff the nurses had to do, it was literally me sitting in a room behind a curtain in a gown. Eventually I went in for surgery at just past 11:00 a.m. on that day.

Today - Not quite so egregious, but I had an appointment at an eye clinic at 9:00 a.m. on the dot. I arrived 15 mins early, and sat in reception waiting. The specialist who was seeing me waltzed in at 9:15 a.m!

So yeah, twice that the doctors have been later than the patient. Just seems like wasted time and nobody really to chew them out for time-keeping.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I’ve finally gotten private health insurance, so it gives me another option at least. Cheaper than I was expecting actually.

 

[arknor]

I’ve finally gotten private health insurance, so it gives me another option at least. Cheaper than I was expecting actually.

When you start to need it the prices will no doubt rise quickly