North Korea

[Rroff]

Boat?

Tanks/bulldozers with mine clearing ewuipment


Those big ass caonnons that fire thos tubes full of explosves to clear mines

Soviet style punishment batalions forced to march shoulder to shoulder into the feild


And biggest issue would probbaly be the fact they put the majority of them there and know the feilds


But again he said theyd attack SK. Not me

I can't see how they could invade these days without significant NBC capabilities - the prep work for what you are talking about would take weeks and be very obvious.

I believe their current artillery is setup so they can stagger fire and move those guns that have fired into cover between volleys so as to minimise the war of attrition to counter battery fire which wouldn't be possible when moving artillery forward - they'd also be at a disadvantage in that SK/US counter batteries would have the grid sighted and could return fire on a position far more quickly while NK would have to recalculate firing solutions from the new position.

 

[Tefal]

I can't see how they could invade these days without significant NBC capabilities - the prep work for what you are talking about would take weeks and be very obvious.

I believe their current artillery is setup so they can stagger fire and move those guns that have fired into cover between volleys so as to minimise the war of attrition to counter battery fire which wouldn't be possible when moving artillery forward - they'd also be at a disadvantage in that SK/US counter batteries would have the grid sighted and could return fire on a position far more quickly while NK would have to recalculate firing solutions from the new position.

As a wild crazy theory how far forward do you think they could dig tunnels before hitting some kind of ground detector?

Youd think on thier "side" of it they could dige fairly far forward and camoflage the exits/not dig through to the surface to open the last bit at the end to pour tanks and mechanized infrantry out off

But i suppose they could attack sk from a far and just sit behind that same god awful dmz.

 

[Rroff]

IIRC they've got pretty far with tunnels - SK were finding new ones all the time.

I can't really see them trying an invasion any time soon - its more likely they'll hide behind the cost of invading NK and keep ramping up the rhetoric with intermediate and long range missile capabilities until they don't know when they've gone too far.

 

[Tefal]

IIRC they've got pretty far with tunnels - SK were finding new ones all the time.

I can't really see them trying an invasion any time soon - its more likely they'll hide behind the cost of invading NK and keep ramping up the rhetoric with intermediate and long range missile capabilities until they don't know when they've gone too far.

oh me neither i think theres pretty much 0 chance of an invasion

i agree they will follow their isolationist doctrine.


question is is the best way to break that sanctions or what we have done elsewhere and corruption though "freedom".

what we currently do is isolate them, starve them, deprive them of everything external in the hopes they change and turn on their dictator.

but we help him by doing this we are the evil enemy, the reason thier children are starving and leave them the current Kim as their only hope.

if we opened trade, flooded them with goods, prosperity, external influence how long would they last?

every dictator strives to keep out the outside world (see soviet union), and we're playing into their hands.

we need to stop being the evil sheriff of Nottingham and start being the bountiful alternative.

 

[StriderX]

There's also the fact that there aren't any civilians to worry about near the DMZ, the US could use cluster artillery without anyone raising eyebrows.

 

[Rroff]

question is is the best way to break that sanctions or what we have done elsewhere and corruption though "freedom".

what we currently do is isolate them, starve them, deprive them of everything external in the hopes they change and turn on their dictator.

but we help him by doing this we are the evil enemy, the reason thier children are starving and leave them the current Kim as their only hope.

if we opened trade, flooded them with goods, prosperity, external influence how long would they last?

every dictator strives to keep out the outside world (see soviet union), and we're playing into their hands.

we need to stop being the evil sheriff of Nottingham and start being the bountiful alternative.

I'd be fascinated to know the actual level of indoctrination within the general population - recently been a few of the border guards with China deserting though with varied methods - the latest lot went on an armed spree in China which might point to things being so bad outside the cities they are finally getting desperate enough to try anything.

 

[Tefal]

There's also the fact that there aren't any civilians to worry about near the DMZ, the US could use cluster artillery without anyone raising eyebrows.

well except for the whole "zomg thier banned" crap

Although the significance of creating an accidental minefield next to the worlds largest minefield may be rather minor lol

 

[Tefal]

I'd be fascinated to know the actual level of indoctrination within the general population - recently been a few of the border guards with China deserting though with varied methods - the latest lot went on an armed spree in China which might point to things being so bad outside the cities they are finally getting desperate enough to try anything.

is backing people into desperation the best way, actually scrap that is it something we even want to do?

is that who we are now? ends justify the means?

**** everyone so long as we get our way?

 

[StriderX]

well except for the whole "zomg thier banned" crap

Although the significance of creating an accidental minefield next to the worlds largest minefield may be rather minor lol

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-10829976

But many of the world's major military powers - including the US, Russia and China - are not signatories to the treaty.

The US administration insists cluster munitions are "legitimate weapons" with "clear military utility in combat".

NK even moves an inch and that small section of planet will be the most bombarded since Munich Dresden (I guess it doesnt matter in honesty) was flattened.

 

[Rroff]

Given several of those most likely to complain have themselves used them in recent years I doubt anyone would pipe up if the US did to be fair :s

 

[Tefal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-10829976



NK even moves an inch and that small section of planet will be the most bombarded since Munich was flattened.

i kow the usa isnt a signatory but it doesn't stop us having constant news stories about it.

hilariously for your point our news has been slating Russia for using them in syria.

 

[StriderX]

i kow the usa isnt a signatory but it doesn't stop us having constant news stories about it.

hilariously for your point our news has been slating Russia for using them in syria.

The US isnt a bastion of taking the higher ground...

 

[Tefal]

The US isnt a bastion of taking the higher ground...

oh i know,. but any war with nk unless they start it would be a political will war

 

[House]

FYI people saying nobody lives in the DMZ they do, I've been there, a Village called Taesong-Dong or "freedom Village" to the yanks., the people who live there get some benefits, like they don't pay any tax, are except from Korean national service, get free houses and land to farm. People arent allowed to move there unless they marry someone who lives there already and a whole bunch of other weird rules. Its a small place but i had some Ginsing that was grown there I bought from the shop and some North Korean Soju (Soju is rough, north korean Soju is VERY rough and best used as a cleaning solvent).

I've been down the tunnels and while the guide was talking about how many North Korean soldiers could have flooded through I didn't see it unless they are munchkins cause that tunnel was not a nice place to be.
The fences around the rivers crossing the DMZ are since the NK special forces swam down the rivers and took pot shoots in Seoul at the presidential palace a while back.

Its a funny place to visit, there was a lot of Apaches and Blackhawks flying around while i was there as there was a fire in the DMZ and they were worried about it setting off mines. They were dropping water on it from Civilian choppers and "keeping an eye on things"

 

[Johno please?]

question is is the best way to break that sanctions or what we have done elsewhere and corruption though "freedom".

what we currently do is isolate them, starve them, deprive them of everything external in the hopes they change and turn on their dictator.

but we help him by doing this we are the evil enemy, the reason thier children are starving and leave them the current Kim as their only hope.

if we opened trade, flooded them with goods, prosperity, external influence how long would they last?

every dictator strives to keep out the outside world (see soviet union), and we're playing into their hands.

we need to stop being the evil sheriff of Nottingham and start being the bountiful alternative.

The yanks gave them grain, with american flags on so the people knew where it came from..... doesnt matter, "look how powerful our dear leader is the filthy americans pay him tribute"

Notice how Kim appears to be the only fat person in the country.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

The yanks gave them grain, with american flags on so the people knew where it came from..... doesnt matter, "look how powerful our dear leader is the filthy americans pay him tribute"

Notice how Kim appears to be the only fat person in the country.

The north Korean people do not support Kim because they think the western world is weak, they stay loyal to Kim because the western world is does not show signs of real support or intervention. No amount of grain given to North Korean government (which mostly ends up as war reserve stock) will make the North Korean people defect.

It is the hierarchy system of North Korea which keeps people loyal to Kim and removes power from those considered disloyal. We figured that leaving them alone and letting them starve into desperation would put them into a 'nothing to lose' situation. Fact is, even if they are willing to lose their own lives to strive for a low chance of freedom, most people are not willing to sacrifice the lives and fate of their families and future generations to the prison work camps. What good is knowing that a country across the world can crush your dictator leader, when they do little trade empty vague threats and your dictator leader is the one who decides whether you starve, are worked to death or get promoted.


Loyalty is all about the carrot and the stick:

Western world

Carrot - Bit of aid handed over to the regime
Stick - Nothing/leave them alone to struggle under Kim

Kim Jong Un
Carrot - Increase family rank and therefore food/wealth/position, chance to live a better life
Stick - threat of imprisoning your relatives and future generations, lowering of your family's rank and therefore food/wealth/position


The Western world's non interference suits Kim well. The US generals and major political powers also prefer the status quo. As long NK is there, SK will continue to sign military forces treaties giving the US military freedom to station significant amount of troops in the Pacific... conveniently close to countries whom were not all that friendly in the past.

 

[Rroff]

Interesting that some think NK is trying to make intercontinental missiles that go much further out into space than traditional and hence by design much more assisted by earth's rotation to get over target (not looked into the science of it) assumedly thinking they will be much harder to counter also. While a massive technical hurdle if that is an intentional design goal rather than a miscalculation they are much further along than people give them credit for and will likely have the delivery system perfected in much less than the 3 years some are projecting.

 

[Azza]

And another launch this morning fire from Pukchang.

Unknown missle type right now.


edit--------------------->

North Korea JCS says it headed east and flew 500km.

 

[Rroff]

Yeah they aren't giving up - looks like they are merely months from perfecting domestic produced intermediate range missiles capable of being utilised from a TEL platform which are potentially nuclear capable - that is gonna make Japan happy :s

 

[IronWarrior]

https://www.voanews.com/a/third-naval-strike-force-deployed-north-korea/3873637.html

Third Carrier Group heading to the area.