Soldato
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For the death penalty to be invoked, there would need to be absolute proof. For example DNA evidence.
Nurse arrested for murdering babies
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There's been so-called absolute proof in a number of cases that have later been overturned. It just is impossible to be so sure that you put somebody to death.
I think one way to solve this problem in the future, is to have a whistleblowing system, or reporting system which bypasses the hospital management entirely.
If senior doctors suspect that serious crimes are occurring, (people being murdered) the system should trust their judgement implicitly, and they should be able to anonymously report their concerns to the police, without fear of the hospital management, being reported - or even being wrong.
In my mind, if someone suspect serious criminal wrongdoing, the hospital managers should be thrown by the wayside and the police need to be involved as quickly as possible.
The hospital managers should be in the business of approving budgets, spending, staffing, general stuff - not trying to figure out whether or not criminals are at large in their wards.
If senior doctors suspect that serious crimes are occurring, (people being murdered) the system should trust their judgement implicitly, and they should be able to anonymously report their concerns to the police, without fear of the hospital management, being reported - or even being wrong.
In my mind, if someone suspect serious criminal wrongdoing, the hospital managers should be thrown by the wayside and the police need to be involved as quickly as possible.
The hospital managers should be in the business of approving budgets, spending, staffing, general stuff - not trying to figure out whether or not criminals are at large in their wards.
Man of Honour
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I mentioned somewhere above that two Clinicians came to us with concerns of two unexplained deaths and between those two, our department and the Police we got Experts to look through the notes and basically waited for another unexplained death, no Management were involved.
It just so happened that they were two unexplained deaths.
Our whistleblowing system is great going by the amount of stuff we receive.
All 4 National News incidents I've been involved with started with whisteblowing by fellow Clinicians and all were taken seriously immediately.
By the sounds of it, the way things are run in your situation is a lot different than what happened with the Letby case, getting the police involved as soon as possible is key.
From reading through the evidence, in the Letby case - it felt as though the hospital managers took it on themselves to try and figure the problem out whilst keeping it quiet, which is where the biggest failing was, in my opinion - because it's not their job.
For me, the police have got to be involved from the outset because they know how to investigate and look for crime, put simply - if the police had gotten involved as soon as the doctors had asked, the outcome would likely have been more favourable and I believe that several more babies might actually be alive.
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Man of Honour
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and that's the ridiculous part, some of these Managers will be on a much lower payscale than the Clinicians reporting it with zero idea of Clinical situations.
Obviously in Letby's case it sounded ridiculous that a Nurse could be doing it.
They report their findings higher up the chain until the CEO gets involved and Human Resources who will get the Clinicians to apologise to Letby.
I really hope these people are also taken to Court for what they contributed to this case.
I suppose it depends on there being a paper trail that could feasibly reach all layers of responsibility assuming of course the first person it was reported to didn't just write down some biased garbage to protect their nurses.
I think the fallout from this case will go on for decades, I imagine we'll see people getting dragged to court, because somebody finds some terrible email, or something comes out of the woodwork involving serious negligence, or an attempted coverup - who knows.
I do think there should be a judge led enquiry, I don't want these people marking their own homework, or getting involved at all, the justice system must be front and centre now.
If I was in charge, I'd make it a criminal offence for a CEO or manager to threaten or attempt to stop senior doctors from reporting suspected crimes to the police. In this case - when Dr Ravi and the group of paediatricians wanted to go to the police, Tony Chambers (head honcho at the time) told them to cease and desist - if they continue they will face consequences.
Caporegime
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I hope so. They have to live with those babies blood on their hands. More than likely they are equally narcissistic anyway. The fact they went against their consultants wishes and required them to apologies to the nurse said it all tbh.
Managers are there to serve their staff but unfortunately most think it is the other way around.
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I think this is why we need a judge led enquiry, uncover all the stones, dig out the skeletons and go through it properly with a fine toothed comb.
I won't be suprised if there's heaps of evidence which has been buried by senior managers at the time of Letby's arrest.
Is the reporting of potential crimes to the police not already covered by the whistleblower laws?
I don't belive they are.
It all revolves around following the official whistleblowing policy, which involves an internal investigation - the police don't feature anywhere in the whistleblowing policy - as far as I can tell.
Man of Honour
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If I remember I'm with the Trust Lawyer tomorrow who deals with all that stuff.
Police are definitely involved with some of them at some point because I have to send them records.
Am I right in thinking that, the police would only be contacted after the hospital had concluded that there was grounds to do so?
Man of Honour
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I did post earlier that we had a case earlier this year where only the two whistleblower Clinicians, our department and the Police were involved but to be honest I'll find out if upper management were involved.
Well..... slight loophole there then I think.
'Scribbled notes are the only glimpse into Lucy Letby's twisted mind'
DR SOHOM DAS: Those scribbled notes are, quite simply, a glimpse into Lucy Letby's psyche. As a forensic psychiatrist, it's my job to treat and rehabilitate what some call the 'criminally insane'.
Man of Honour
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Sorry Screeeech but the big boss is in Court and I'm only here with the Secretary.
What I do know is that the Director of Legal Services at Chester (my bosses equal) gave professional advice not to go further with the case because of fear of bringing disrepute to the hospital.
Here's hoping they bring him to justice, he was also an ex copper.
My boss went through all this during the Stafford Hospital scandal so he would know better and he takes everything seriously.
Is it safe to say that you *could* whistle blow on your paper-pushing bosses potentially covering up a crime, say someone murdering babies, and it would be all fine and dandy as regards getting any comeback from your employers, but you can't go to the whistle blow to the police direct, and get the same protection?