NVIDIA 4000 Series

[muon]

me sir, how about moany cost of living buyers full frontal attack on gpu prices catchy title me thinks

Then we can have news, about how once some gamers go into withdrawal, they start saying actually paying £500/£600 for a 7800 XT or 4070 ain't so bad.

Prices of everything is simply dictated by competition and how well products can be tiered to price discriminate to capture the value of a product to a customer. Better competition simply means they aren't able to do this.

It isn't nvidia's fault prices are high (unless they've broken competition law ala Intel), the prices are high because gaming and the products they offer are worth that much to people. Pricing is very simple for anyone that has studied economics. The way to avoid it is to have better competition in the market, not by moaning about people who are willing to spend their money on something that is worth it to them.

Airlines do this through different classes, even supermarkets do this through different quality produce. All those prices are set to keep them valuable to the customer they want to sell to at the various price points.

Price discrimination - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

A lot of consumer spending in the west is driven by huge amounts of debt,ie,money printing. It's also meant lots of companies are leveraged up to the nines in debt(because its cheap),and have terrible P/E ratios.

Just look at the US:

Visualizing America’s $1 Trillion Credit Card Debt

Americans’ collective credit card debt surpassed $1 trillion for the first time in 2023.

www.visualcapitalist.com

American Credit Card Debt Hits a New Record—What’s Changed Post-Pandemic?

It’s Halloween! And while you may be thinking of goblins and ghosts, nothing can haunt you the way credit card debt does. While consumers’ credit card debt dropped during COVID, signs point to it starting to crawl back to pre-pandemic levels. And over the summer, credit card usage in the U.S...

www.gao.gov

That doesn't include debt from higher purchase schemes,ie,buy now,pay later,etc.

One trillion USD in Credit Card debt alone. Car loans are $1.6 trillion:

Average Car Payment and Auto Loan Statistics: 2024 | LendingTree

The average car payment for new vehicles was $734 per month in the second quarter of 2024, a 0.1% increase from the second quarter of 2023.

www.lendingtree.com

Total US household debt is over $17 trillion:

Average American Debt in 2024: Household Debt Statistics

The average American debt is over $104,000 per person in 2024, mostly in mortgages and student loans. Here's the average debt in America.

www.businessinsider.com

In the UK personal debt is also high:

UK personal debt rose a third in 2022 | money.co.uk

Spiralling bills and costs have seen the average adult’s debt (not counting mortgages) in the UK rise from £25,879 to £34,566 (£8,687) in 2022, with four in five adults revealing they will start the new year in debt, up from three in five in 2021.

www.money.co.uk

Spiralling bills and costs have seen the average adult’s debt (not counting mortgages) in the UK rise from £25,879 to £34,566 (£8,687) in 2022, with four in five adults revealing they will start the new year in debt, up from three in five in 2021.

The reality is a lot of companies have taken advantage of this,so jack prices up because even if people can't afford it,ie,they can take on debt.

That is on top of the fact we keep running mass deficits all the time. The money printing will have to stop at some point and a lot of industries are going to not like it.

At some point,I am not sure how this is going to be sustainable,especially as it seems more and more of the money is tricking upwards:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.html

We are already seeing the effects of trillions printed over the last few years on general inflation,which has mostly benefited the top.

Over the last two years, the richest 1% of people have accumulated close to two-thirds of all new wealth created around the world, a new report from Oxfam says.

A total of $42 trillion in new wealth has been created since 2020, with $26 trillion, or 63%, of that being amassed by the top 1% of the ultra-rich, according to the report. The remaining 99% of the global population collected just $16 trillion of new wealth, the global poverty charity says.

 

[humbug]

A lot of consumer spending in the west is driven by huge amounts of debt,ie,money printing. It's also meant lots of companies are leveraged up to the nines in debt(because its cheap),and have terrible P/E ratios.

Just look at the US:

Visualizing America’s $1 Trillion Credit Card Debt

Americans’ collective credit card debt surpassed $1 trillion for the first time in 2023.

www.visualcapitalist.com

American Credit Card Debt Hits a New Record—What’s Changed Post-Pandemic?

It’s Halloween! And while you may be thinking of goblins and ghosts, nothing can haunt you the way credit card debt does. While consumers’ credit card debt dropped during COVID, signs point to it starting to crawl back to pre-pandemic levels. And over the summer, credit card usage in the U.S...

www.gao.gov

That doesn't include debt from higher purchase schemes,ie,buy now,pay later,etc.

One trillion USD in Credit Card debt alone. Car loans are $1.6 billion:

Average Car Payment and Auto Loan Statistics: 2024 | LendingTree

The average car payment for new vehicles was $734 per month in the second quarter of 2024, a 0.1% increase from the second quarter of 2023.

www.lendingtree.com

Total US household debt is over $17 trillion:

Average American Debt in 2024: Household Debt Statistics

The average American debt is over $104,000 per person in 2024, mostly in mortgages and student loans. Here's the average debt in America.

www.businessinsider.com

In the UK personal debt is high:

UK personal debt rose a third in 2022 | money.co.uk

Spiralling bills and costs have seen the average adult’s debt (not counting mortgages) in the UK rise from £25,879 to £34,566 (£8,687) in 2022, with four in five adults revealing they will start the new year in debt, up from three in five in 2021.

www.money.co.uk

The reality is a lot of companies have taken advantage of this,so jack prices up because even if people can't afford it,ie,they can take on debt.

That is on top of the fact we keep running mass deficits all the time. The money printing will have to stop at some point and a lot of industries are going to not like it.

At some point,I am not sure how this is going to be sustainable,especially as it seems more and more of the money is tricking upwards:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.html

We are already seeing the effects of trillions printed over the last few years on general inflation,which has mostly benefited the top.

One day all this will bite back and then the whole thing comes crashing down, creditors always win, they will take everything, your house, your car, your 4090.

I'm old enough to know its a repeating cycle, cheap credit, high debt, inflation, high interest rates, repossession, rinse repeat....

 

[muon]

Lol. So the reason you guys don't like nvidia is because you don't like capitalism. Got it.

 

[Calin Banc]

A lot of consumer spending in the west is driven by huge amounts of debt,ie,money printing. It's also meant lots of companies are leveraged up to the nines in debt(because its cheap),and have terrible P/E ratios.

Just look at the US:

Visualizing America’s $1 Trillion Credit Card Debt

Americans’ collective credit card debt surpassed $1 trillion for the first time in 2023.

www.visualcapitalist.com

American Credit Card Debt Hits a New Record—What’s Changed Post-Pandemic?

It’s Halloween! And while you may be thinking of goblins and ghosts, nothing can haunt you the way credit card debt does. While consumers’ credit card debt dropped during COVID, signs point to it starting to crawl back to pre-pandemic levels. And over the summer, credit card usage in the U.S...

www.gao.gov

That doesn't include debt from higher purchase schemes,ie,buy now,pay later,etc.

One trillion USD in Credit Card debt alone. Car loans are $1.6 trillion:

Average Car Payment and Auto Loan Statistics: 2024 | LendingTree

The average car payment for new vehicles was $734 per month in the second quarter of 2024, a 0.1% increase from the second quarter of 2023.

www.lendingtree.com

Total US household debt is over $17 trillion:

Average American Debt in 2024: Household Debt Statistics

The average American debt is over $104,000 per person in 2024, mostly in mortgages and student loans. Here's the average debt in America.

www.businessinsider.com

In the UK personal debt is also high:

UK personal debt rose a third in 2022 | money.co.uk

Spiralling bills and costs have seen the average adult’s debt (not counting mortgages) in the UK rise from £25,879 to £34,566 (£8,687) in 2022, with four in five adults revealing they will start the new year in debt, up from three in five in 2021.

www.money.co.uk

The reality is a lot of companies have taken advantage of this,so jack prices up because even if people can't afford it,ie,they can take on debt.

That is on top of the fact we keep running mass deficits all the time. The money printing will have to stop at some point and a lot of industries are going to not like it.

At some point,I am not sure how this is going to be sustainable,especially as it seems more and more of the money is tricking upwards:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.html

We are already seeing the effects of trillions printed over the last few years on general inflation,which has mostly benefited the top.

My credit card is interest free, so is worth buying through it instead of cash. With high inflation, you're doing it wrong not to )

Did a quick search. For a smoker, let's say you smoke a pack in 2 days. That's $1460 a year, in US, for an average cost of $8 a pack. $2920 if you're smoking one pack a day. So if someone smokes, it already spends about a 4090 on those. Don't go out as much and you can save some more. Quit smoking and nVIDIA has its new "drug" for you! )

Again, for 1st world countries this isn't really much considering how many hours of entertainment you get instead... Not to mention that now you pay something like 5-600 dollars for a card instead of around 400. How much is it for them $200 over the course of a few years?

 

[Calin Banc]

Lol. So the reason you guys don't like nvidia is because you don't like capitalism. Got it.

Well, capitalism isn't perfect, so it's ok to dislike it along side Nvidia

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

My credit card is interest free, so is worth buying through it instead of cash. With high inflation, you're doing it wrong not to )

Did a quick search. For a smoker, let's say you smoke a pack in 2 days. That's $1460 a year, in US, for an average cost of $8 a pack. $2920 if you're smoking one pack a day. So if someone smokes, it already spends about a 4090 on those. Don't go out as much and you can save some more. Quit smoking and nVIDIA has its new "drug" for you! )

Again, for 1st world countries this isn't really much considering how many hours of entertainment you get instead... Not to mention that now you pay something like 5-600 dollars for a card instead of around 400. How much is it for them $200 over the course of a few years?

The reality is if you took away those trillions of USD in cheap credit prices wouldn't be as high.Also people are smoking less as the price increases. Most of the cheap credit is in first world countries. Poor countries don't get cheap credit.

This has enabled people to pay beyond the odds for everything from houses, cars and iPhones. Phone contracts are a form of credit if a phone is included. Trillions of USD/Pounds/Euro have been printed or borrowed on top of that since 2020 due to the Pandemic and the effects of recent events in Europe. That has to be paid back one way or another.

Plus,looking forward for the next five to ten years now is this sustainable? Europe especially is going to hit some bumps due to its over reliance on external manufacturering and resources. Taxes are going to go up and up.

Also your arguments about 50% generational price increases is a bit unsustainable.So $600 this generation from $400. So next generation, that is $900 and so on. Next generation it's $1350. Honestly I find the defence of Nvidia, AMD or Intel price increases really weird. Saw it with the AMD people doing it with Zen3 or Zen4, etc.

Nvidia wouldn't be releasing Super cards if sales were OK. AMD wouldn't have price cut Zen3 or Zen4 either.

Just look on Steam. Most cards are under $500. The RTX4060 is the most popular new generation card. I know very few people with cards over £500 or even overclock. Most console sales are also in first world countries. Japan and the US are two of the biggest console markets.

The reality is hardware enthusiasts on tech forums, are surrounded by those who will spend more and upgrade more often than normal. But it also skews the idea of how much people are going to spend on computer hardware significantly upwards.

If people on forums are unhappy that says a lot.

 

[JediFragger]

I know very few people with cards over £500

You need to ditch those peasants y0

 

[Gerard]

I'll stick with this vega card til gta 6 drops for pc. Generally play older games anyway so it handles them all easily enough. Currently revisiting Allied Assault from 2002.

 

[MartinPrince]

I'll stick with this vega card til gta 6 drops for pc. Generally play older games anyway so it handles them all easily enough. Currently revisiting Allied Assault from 2002.

One of my all time favourite games - took me ages to get off the beach but so rewarding when I actually accomplished it!

(Because you mentioned it I'm going to get it again and see just how hard it pushes my 4090 )

Also truly wonderful theme music and the first time I discovered Michael Giachinno who went on to become one of my favourite film score composers. (Star Trek Into Darkness (2013) etc. etc )

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

only reason Nvidia price cuts is coming as gamers not buying from them atm, as AMD mid range/lower are selling pretty well(ish), and generally better raster performance to Nvidia cards at the price point, and at that end i doubt many bothered with mickey mouse gimmicks like RT as generally cards not powerful enough using raster, myself dlss/fsr are only there if i struggle to run a game, playing generally FM8 atm, no RT/DLSS as it funs fine for moi at 1440p high, and tbh im not going to stop mid race n look at fancy lighting/reflections, or pull up the verge n think ooo now thats some nice upscaling i end up last

businesses can charge what they like, its a free market, no one being forced to buy overpriced cards, but they are, which maintains higher prices.
so no moaning when next gen arrives with even higher prices

 

[mahius]

Exactly, this forum can all collude to teach nvidia a lesson right. We should all quit gaming for 2 years to save a few hundred bucks in 3 years time.

It's funny you say that. Since my 980ti died a few years back, I slowed down and stopped playing games on PC. The only significant bit of gaming I did last year was on my brother's Nintendo Switch when I borrowed it from him last year to play the new Zelda and dabbled in a couple oother titles.

Honestly. I barely miss it or notice much of a difference, I don't have as much time or energy to play games these days anyway.
A new GPU would probably convince me to start going through my Steam library again, but that's unlikely given the poor offerings this generation (I'm doing my new build GPU-less or using the old 970 I still have).

Anyhow, a new year has started. Let's see how Nvidia bugger up the launch of the 4000 super series and what both AMD and Nvidia do with the next generation at the end of the year/start of next year.
I hold out little hope that there will be anything worth buying.

 

[Jae-So]

You need to ditch those peasants y0

I never used to get expensive cards (or new) until the 3080 generation - now I have a 4090

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You need to ditch those peasants y0

TBH,some of the wealthiest people I have met are also some of the most thrifty.

 

[Vertigo]

Just wait until the Chinese economy implodes, which is closer than you think. That's going to throw the entire global economy into chaos with the sheer amount of stuff manufactured there.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Soon be Chinese new year.. just in time to assist the price massaging again!

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

though crypto prices are rising, thank god for high energy prices, well except those on tracker tariffs

 

[Calin Banc]

The reality is if you took away those trillions of USD in cheap credit prices wouldn't be as high.Also people are smoking less as the price increases. Most of the cheap credit is in first world countries. Poor countries don't get cheap credit.

This has enabled people to pay beyond the odds for everything from houses, cars and iPhones. Phone contracts are a form of credit if a phone is included. Trillions of USD/Pounds/Euro have been printed or borrowed on top of that since 2020 due to the Pandemic and the effects of recent events in Europe. That has to be paid back one way or another.

Plus,looking forward for the next five to ten years now is this sustainable? Europe especially is going to hit some bumps due to its over reliance on external manufacturering and resources. Taxes are going to go up and up.

Also your arguments about 50% generational price increases is a bit unsustainable.So $600 this generation from $400. So next generation, that is $900 and so on. Next generation it's $1350. Honestly I find the defence of Nvidia, AMD or Intel price increases really weird. Saw it with the AMD people doing it with Zen3 or Zen4, etc.

Nvidia wouldn't be releasing Super cards if sales were OK. AMD wouldn't have price cut Zen3 or Zen4 either.

Just look on Steam. Most cards are under $500. The RTX4060 is the most popular new generation card. I know very few people with cards over £500 or even overclock. Most console sales are also in first world countries. Japan and the US are two of the biggest console markets.

The reality is hardware enthusiasts on tech forums, are surrounded by those who will spend more and upgrade more often than normal. But it also skews the idea of how much people are going to spend on computer hardware significantly upwards.

If people on forums are unhappy that says a lot.

The problem with capitalism is its gluttony. Combine it with something like the Friedman's Doctrine where you only go for maximizing profits, zero social responsibility ( it usually goes around, on these forums too) and you'll end up in a very bad place, leaving space for all sorts of nasty outcomes.

$200 increase is not about how sustainable it is, it only tries to say that yet is not that much, hence they still sell - even thought is far more than that. I've said previously that 4090 is the poisonous fruit as it only looks good if you compared it with other bad cards - like this gen and previous gen 3090, which are ALL badly priced. Not to mention that it imposes a high end system, latest and greatest, in order to actually benefit from its performance. So yeah, gluttony...

Of course, overall, most cards will be up to mainstream. People around the globe have it a lot worse than people complaining from 1st world countries. They won't have the money to spend that much and others that do, are not willing unless they're really passionate about gaming. And those will still spend on cards... for instance, using Bing to search for me:

According to the latest data, Steam has 132 million monthly active users . Therefore, the number of RTX 3080 users on Steam is approximately 2,915,200 (2.21% of 132 million) and the number of RTX 4080 users on Steam is approximately 950,400 (0.72% of 132 million) .

So as bad as it was, 4080 still sold in about 15 months about a third of what 3080 sold in 39 months. 3080 had the mining and Covid on its side, practically selling faster than they could be made... So yeah, people are still buying even though the price is craaaazy high. People on forums are upset, but are still buying these up.

 

[Joxeon]

Of course, overall, most cards will be up to mainstream. People around the globe have it a lot worse than people complaining from 1st world countries. They won't have the money to spend that much and others that do, are not willing unless they're really passionate about gaming. And those will still spend on cards... for instance, using Bing to search for me:


So as bad as it was, 4080 still sold in about 15 months about a third of what 3080 sold in 39 months. 3080 had the mining and Covid on its side, practically selling faster than they could be made... So yeah, people are still buying even though the price is craaaazy high. People on forums are upset, but are still buying these up.

950,400 is really low for the 4080 figures after a over a year.

The figures I have from march 2021 steam show the 3080 had already sold 1,620,000 units in 6 months and that was only the ones being used for gaming which considering how many 3080 cards OCUK had delivered between jan and march the majority at that time were being sent to the mines.

 

[muon]

950,400 is really low for the 4080 figures after a over a year.

The figures I have from march 2021 steam show the 3080 had already sold 1,620,000 units in 6 months and that was only the ones being used for gaming which considering how many 3080 cards OCUK had delivered between jan and march the majority at that time were being sent to the mines.

Nvidia care about revenue. Whats the price of a 3080 and a 4080.

If you can sell something for double, and not halve your sales. That's a shrewd business move.

It's also misleading as they ended up selling way more 4090 cards for an even higher price (0.90% share). Compare that to the 3090 (currently only 0.60%).