Is this actually true? Remember they are not just limited on total fuel, but also the rate at which it is consumed.
"Our attempts to make Formula One greener is ruining the sport" - Bernie Ecclestone
- Thread starter Spie
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Is this actually true? Remember they are not just limited on total fuel, but also the rate at which it is consumed.
Yes and has been for years, have you actually watched f1, in the last decade.
A kilos of fuel was 0.2-0.3 seconds a lap penalty. This can not be made up. Which is why for years we've had radio coms going save fuel.
Sod all to do with rules.
This year we have a limit and it still looks like non Renault teams are underfilling.
A kilo of fuel was always said to be a tenth by brundle and choultard. They also definitely go slower by that much when not having to catch/stay in front of a competitor.
I'm not convinced that being able to consume more fuel and therefore carry more would actually slow them down.
So why are they under filling since refilling was banned. You talk absolute nonsense.
It is well known they under fill to complete the race faster. The weight penalty is to much. That has sod all to do with engine, actually these hybrids are better for that for two reason,
a) they extract far more energy per kilo
b) lower fuel limit and car weighs more, meaning less penalty per kilo, but there will still be a penalties. And by the looks of it mercy runners are still under filling this year.'
There's two semi solutions. Bring back refulling which massively cuts the penalty as you are only carrying the weight for 1/3 or 1/2 the race. Or set a fuel weight, rather than a maximum.
But the fuel penalty is still there. And there's reiability to think about. Teams unlike pre mid 90s know it's better to finish than DNF.
You're also not doing the maths, it's far more than 0.2 per lap.
Say they have an extra 10kilos over a 50 lap race.
The first lap is 2 seconds slower.
Lap 2 is still 1.96 seconds slower.
So on and so forth until the last lap.
Just like tyres, it's finding the fastest medium.
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There was a period where F1 cars had massive tanks and had to run from the start to the finish of the race on that one tank. Of course, teams never filled it, they put as little in as they could get away with to save weight, and then had to nurse the cars home so as not to run out of fuel. It really wasn't that different to this year in terms of not being able to drive the cars flat out due to having to conserve fuel.
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Ever since refuelling was removed and some analysts sat at a computer running simulations that told them 'underfuelling' and going slower if necessary was actually faster over a race distance than tanking up and thrashing it the cars have been managing fuel.
This is absolutely nothing to do with the engines or the fuel limits this year, this has been happening for a long time and is just an inconvenient effect of a more modern approach to racing - analysis, strategy, simulations and calculations down to the last litre of fuel (or mm of tyre tread), not necessarily just driving really fast and hoping you're faster than the next guy.
The only way you stop this is to reintroduce refuelling so they're not forced to carry so much fuel all the time and actually thrashing the cars becomes competitive again.
This is absolutely nothing to do with the engines or the fuel limits this year, this has been happening for a long time and is just an inconvenient effect of a more modern approach to racing - analysis, strategy, simulations and calculations down to the last litre of fuel (or mm of tyre tread), not necessarily just driving really fast and hoping you're faster than the next guy.
The only way you stop this is to reintroduce refuelling so they're not forced to carry so much fuel all the time and actually thrashing the cars becomes competitive again.
Too many people in this section of the forum think they own this place and can talk to people rudely without a fraction of respect in a debate. It really is getting worse year on year.
Did you need a ladder?
But what if they were allowed to consume 100kg of fuel in a ten minute window. Wouldn't they consider carrying more fuel in that instance?
Or are you saying that just carrying fuel is now such a burden we could actually do away with fuel regs completely and the teams would come up with their own ideas, some starting with more but using more some starting with less and using less. I think that would be a pretty decent idea creating far different strategies across the field. Set an overall limit for green reasons but don't mandate a starting amount?
Its swings and roundabouts though. Banning refueling doubled on track overtakes. So you solve one problem and create another. Tyre limited, fuel limited, strategy limited, as long as your limited by something then you will always be managing something.
Personally I think, in isolation in current F1, banning refueling is an improvement. Its difficult to gauge how much with the other regulation 'noise', but I'm in no hurry to go back to drivers averaging less than 1 overtake per race.
. 100kg is a maximum amount, not fixed. If a team think they can complete a race with 90kg then they will.I have no idea what that means, probably an insult though. I don't like ladders, I don't like heights.
That's almost exactly it. Except it's not 'now such a burden', it has been for AGES.
There are already hints that teams aren't using the full 100kg allowance they have and in previous years with the V8s they've ALL been fuel managing because it's quicker to run with the absolute minimum than it is to fuel up a load and hammer it around as much as possible.
Don't disagree with that at all.
They are under filling.
It doesn't matter how much you give them.
Let them use 100kg in 10mind and they would DNF, which teams no longer will do. They've understood for over a decade points are better than a DNF even if its not a win.
You also have the issue of stupidly fast cars for a few minutes then the ones with engines surfing limping round on a totally non optimised car, as the two extremes change the aero, the balance, drivability.
again even with 100kilo weight limit that many teams are still underfulling.
The reason for the flow rate limit, is to limit BHP. Without the fuel flow limit, there is nothing at all stopping the teams having a qualifying set up, and also change it on board like they do at the moment, but having access to 1000s of BHP for a few seconds for over taking.
Do yeah you haven't thought that threw at all.
It doesn't matter how much you give them.
Let them use 100kg in 10mind and they would DNF, which teams no longer will do. They've understood for over a decade points are better than a DNF even if its not a win.
You also have the issue of stupidly fast cars for a few minutes then the ones with engines surfing limping round on a totally non optimised car, as the two extremes change the aero, the balance, drivability.
again even with 100kilo weight limit that many teams are still underfulling.
The reason for the flow rate limit, is to limit BHP. Without the fuel flow limit, there is nothing at all stopping the teams having a qualifying set up, and also change it on board like they do at the moment, but having access to 1000s of BHP for a few seconds for over taking.
Do yeah you haven't thought that threw at all.
I'd be all for that if they removed the DRS
I wouldn't just like DRS it's not racing, just rubbish push to pass. Might as well just be a time trial.
Let alone safety, I don't think anyone wants to go back to loosing several drivers a year.
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Maybe F1 should introduce some sort of 'sprint' race on the Saturday perhaps? Super soft tyres, fixed amount of fuel. Maybe even do it in reverse qualifying order.
Or those who don't like f1 just watch another sport, which fits what they think racing ice. But you guys have watched for years, so the moaning this year really doesn't make any sense at all.
Well it does make sense. Other than opinion that it sounds bar, isn't enough to justify moaning so much, so people lie to themselfs and try pulling all this other stuff out to support an opinion, but know full well they are talking rubbish.
And if you have been watching F1 for years and don't know this stuff then fair play, you must like sitting through boring confusing races. Because without knowing the technical and strategy side, F1 loses a lot. I can fully understand why my friends don't like f1 and don't want to spend the time learning the technical/strategy, but that is and always has been what f1 is about.
F1 has never been about all out raving, side by side racing etc.