Piracy and sales

[DrToffnar]

I have Endless Legend in my Steam account after buying it on the back of my enjoyment of Endless Space. By the time I'd learnt to play the game and played one game I'd gone over the 2 hours - after this point I realised the game wasn't what I was expecting (I just wasn't enjoying it the same) and attempted a refund for the £29.99 I paid which was then rejected.

I wish I had pirated that game.

Too bad? :/

I just don't buy this argument that 'I didn't know what I was getting into' when we're easily the MOST informed generation ever to have walked the earth. Align yourself with trusted reviewers who's opinions generally match up with your own and there you go... not too mention youtube vids etc.

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Whilst I agree with you in regards to pirating a game to "find out whether you like it" not really being acceptable, that doesn't address the issue of games which perform poorly, are of poor quality/don't meet the advertising, or are simply so full of bugs they just don't run (*cough* Batman), and the examples you've given aren't really accurate parallels in that respect.

If you bought a pack of cigarettes and they were all damp and ruined, you could take them back.
If you bought a bottle of wine/expensive food and it had gone bad, you could take it back (and in fact many brands have a "satisfaction guarantee" which applies even if you simply "don't like" the product).
If you went to a (decent)restaurant and didn't get what you ordered/it was over/undercooked/cold/etc. then you could send it back.
If you went to the cinema and the sound/picture was cutting out every 10 minutes then I doubt you would find it difficult to get your money back.

And yet, if you buy a game and it doesn't run properly, has the graphics of a 10 year old game despite the fancy "screenshots" on the box, or is so full of bugs that you can't get past the first level, then it's "tough luck, thanks for the £40, bye now"?

So you say "don't buy the game until someone else has so you can find out what it's really like"? If everyone did that, then no game would ever be sold because everyone would be waiting for someone else to buy it!

In terms of a trial/demo, the Steam refund system is definitely a step in the right direction, but IMO it should be based on the average completion time of the particular game (with a minimum of say 20-30 mins).

E.g. a £5 indie game which takes people an average of 2hrs to complete shouldn't need more than 20-30 mins to get a good idea of whether it's "for you", whereas a bigger, more complex 50-60+ hour game like The Witcher 3 might take you 5-6 hours just to get out of the starting/tutorial area and start getting used to the gameplay mechanics - by the time you've configured your graphics settings/controls/etc, 2 hours is barely enough time to do the first quest! IMO the time period to allow for a refund should really reflect that.

I don't disagree but in the case of Batman, didn't everyone get a refund?

I think it's rare that a AAA games launch with crippling widespread bugs. Those that are released are often patched quick or affect a minority (as with any PC software). Indie games... you take your chances tbh. I do think Steam need to do more to step in if the indie developers shaft the public though.

Of course people will have the game before it is launched. Many YouTubers (TotalBiscuit, FrankieonPC) get pre-release code and review a game or provide a "first look" for which to judge the game away from carefully selected screenshots. Not to mention the large media outlets like IGN / Giant Bomb release videos well before launch... there's absolutely no reason someone should buy a game blind (unless they preorder).

I wasn't specifically talking about faulty cigarettes, alcohol or dodgy food during expensive meals out. My point was you can blow £50 on a night out and it'll buy you the grand sum of naff all, yet most youngsters seem content to think this is value because of the experience they get. No different for games.

 

[Gregster]

I have gamed since the early days of the Atari. Had both a Spectrum and a C64 and bought my magazine each month to see what game my paper round money would buy and bought some seriously bad games back then but that was that and you lived with it. This generation really doesn't have an excuse for 'not knowing' what a game is like with the sheer amount of media that is available.

 

[DrToffnar]

Whilst I agree with you in regards to pirating a game to "find out whether you like it" not really being acceptable, that doesn't address the issue of games which perform poorly, are of poor quality/don't meet the advertising, or are simply so full of bugs they just don't run (*cough* Batman), and the examples you've given aren't really accurate parallels in that respect.

Don't pre order. Don't buy into a product generally before getting feedback from someone else (preferably someone who gets paid to be critical of that specific product).

Yeah you can make the argument that these things should work on release and I would absolutely agree, but this industry doesn't work like that.

You have to assume that a publishers bottom line isn't really effected by a buggy releases else they'd be sure every product shipped working. If people are thick enough to pre purchase a product as multi layered and complex as a video game (often without bothering to ait for reviews), then you have to expect publishers to take advantage of that.

 

[Omaeka]

What is with review embargo? If we are to respect the rights of the content creators, why do we not get respect ourselves? I'm quite impressed Valve decided to offer a refund policy after all these years, and it is well appreciated. If developers have confidence in their product, they should offer a demo like they all did years ago but none of them do anymore and it is not because of time constraints or budget, it's due to poor products that they know will not sell well if people can try it first.

I think people are happy to be disrespected if it means abiding by some arbitrary rules written on a piece of paper by somebody no better than any of us.

 

[spoffle]

Too bad? :/

I just don't buy this argument that 'I didn't know what I was getting into' when we're easily the MOST informed generation ever to have walked the earth. Align yourself with trusted reviewers who's opinions generally match up with your own and there you go... not too mention youtube vids etc.

It's odd that "too bad" appears to be a one way street.

 

[DrToffnar]

It's odd that "too bad" appears to be a one way street.

How do you mean, exactly?

 

[krooton]

I just remembered when piracy worked in favour in my past.

Pirated Bioshock. Hated it and deleted after a few hours play.
Didn't even touch Bioshock 2.
Pirated Bioshock Infinite, which I loved so much I went on to buy the Premium Edition and all DLC.

Actually did the same with Borderlands, I have the entire collection and all DLCs for all of them, off the back of me enjoying my pirated copy of the first one.

I was more likely to pirate FPS games as I tend to not like most of them, but these I loved.

 

[spoffle]

How do you mean, exactly?

That the response to what he said was "too bad", context is that it's fine for him to suffer an actual loss but then there's absolutely no justification for someone pirating a game on a try before you buy basis.

That's heavily biased against consumers.

It's an utter load of nonsense and there are quite a lot of games or game franchises that I would have never played, then bought if it wasn't for the easy access that piracy affords.

Piracy affords a convenient easy to use demo of a game that isn't trying to sell itself to you, because it's already been "sold" from the perspective of the game.

No cherry picked parts to make the game look as good as it possibly can, or any other nonsense.

So yeah, it's not as simple as most people are making out. If I haven't bought a game because of piracy, it's because it's bad. So technically a game has not been bought because of piracy but it's no different to me telling a friend not to buy a game because it's bad.

According to some people that is the big problems with piracy, the fact that someone has been discouraged from buying a game...

 

[DrToffnar]

What is with review embargo? If we are to respect the rights of the content creators, why do we not get respect ourselves? I'm quite impressed Valve decided to offer a refund policy after all these years, and it is well appreciated. If developers have confidence in their product, they should offer a demo like they all did years ago but none of them do anymore and it is not because of time constraints or budget, it's due to poor products that they know will not sell well if people can try it first.

I think people are happy to be disrespected if it means abiding by some arbitrary rules written on a piece of paper by somebody no better than any of us.

I don't think any of us are particularly happy with how the system works at present. But piracy does nothing to help the situation. Voting with your wallet is the best way to have your voice heard.

 

[spoffle]

I don't think any of us are particularly happy with how the system works at present. But piracy does nothing to help the situation. Voting with your wallet is the best way to have your voice heard.

Companies dislike piracy on a principle basis for the most part. There are studies that show it has an over all net positive due to people's increased exposure to things they wouldn't have otherwise taken a risk on with their money.

 

[DrToffnar]

That the response to what he said was "too bad", context is that it's fine for him to suffer an actual loss but then there's absolutely no justification for someone pirating a game on a try before you buy basis.

That's heavily biased against consumers.

Ahhh I see.

I guess I just don't see it as a big deal. I don't think everything you buy should be a case of 'if it doesn't gel with me then I want my money back'. I will absolutely agree that the system isn't working. But piracy and being an irresponsible consumer effects no change at all. You should vote with your wallet and your head.

 

[Omaeka]

I don't think any of us are particularly happy with how the system works at present. But piracy does nothing to help the situation. Voting with your wallet is the best way to have your voice heard.

What situation? Can you imagine if car dealerships unanimously decided to stop test drives? How would you feel if you bought a car without ever getting to try it, and then an hour later you realise there's a horrible flaw, but tough luck because you're over the refund period.

Now I know that a car and a game are different things especially where price is concerned, but developers have absolutely no excuse to not release a demo now we are in the digital age. It is to shaft the customer and nothing else. I'd say that giving yourself a demo through piracy and then using that to decide if it's worth money is voting with your wallet. I'm not sure why anyone should care about adding to an arbitrary statistic used by very anti-consumer companies to further their own agenda. Anybody with a brain can see past rubbish like this and know piracy is a minimal loss to profits. I can assure you many companies would love to give us awful products and retain our money, like a sort of guaranteed gamer tax if you will. That is why piracy is an 'issue' to them.

 

[DrToffnar]

What situation? Can you imagine if car dealerships unanimously decided to stop test drives? How would you feel if you bought a car without ever getting to try it, and then an hour later you realise there's a horrible flaw, but tough luck because you're over the refund period.

Now I know that a car and a game are different things especially where price is concerned, but developers have absolutely no excuse to not release a demo now we are in the digital age. It is to shaft the customer and nothing else. I'd say that giving yourself a demo through piracy and then using that to decide if it's worth money is voting with your wallet. I'm not sure why anyone should care about adding to an arbitrary statistic used by very anti-consumer companies to further their own agenda. Anybody with a brain can see past rubbish like this and know piracy is a minimal loss to profits. I can assure you many companies would love to give us awful products and retain our money, like a sort of guaranteed gamer tax if you will. That is why piracy is an 'issue' to them.

You do have a fair point there... I don't think it's as simple or as cynical as that but you could be right.

Regardless, I don't think the right way to get around that is by obtaining the game for free and then saying you MIGHT buy a copy if you deem it worth the cash.

 

[davewhite04]

Bottom line.

The gaming industry is worth billions, no publisher is skint unless they release **** games time after time. This leads me to think, "maybe this guy who buys a game if it's good enough" is telling the truth? Whatever, it's like people on benefits who are ostracised, I tend to be on their side as I know what it's like to be skint and love games. We've ALL played pirated games so this thread is full of hypocrites.

EDIT: Note that naughty words are in a yellow font, so be careful what font colour you use!

 

[spoffle]

You do have a fair point there... I don't think it's as simple or as cynical as that but you could be right.

Regardless, I don't think the right way to get around that is by obtaining the game for free and then saying you MIGHT buy a copy if you deem it worth the cash.

Ultimately it doesn't actually matter, it's a game of semantics in this context. It's no different to borrowing a copy of a game from a friend. That's something that publishers dislike just as much as piracy given that discs have "no unauthorised lending" written on them.

They believe that their rights come before everyone else at their detriment.

 

[DrToffnar]

We've ALL played pirated games so this thread is full of hypocrites.
QUOTE]

I genuinely haven't xD

Music and films once upon a time perhaps but never games.

 

[spoffle]

Bottom line.

The gaming industry is worth billions, no publisher is skint unless they release **** games time after time. This leads me to think, "maybe this guy who buys a game if it's good enough" is telling the truth? Whatever, it's like people on benefits who are ostracised, I tend to be on their side as I know what it's like to be skint and love games. We've ALL played pirated games so this thread is full of hypocrites.

EDIT: Note that naughty words are in a yellow font, so be careful what font colour you use!

The thing is, I'm an advocate of people having the choice to pirate a game to test it out due to the state of the industry and lack of demos, with that said I don't actually pirate games, I did when I was younger as a demo but I haven't really had to, and I've got a considerable amount of games.

 

[malachi]

Spot on.

I tend to shop about for cheap keys and they cost me less than a round of drinks in my local, so there really is no excuse for pirating. It is stealing and that is that, as the game doesn't belong to you.

You get some devs say buying cheap keys is as bad a piracy. Capcom is one of them. As many keys are stolen.

 

[davewhite04]

The thing is, I'm an advocate of people having the choice to pirate a game to test it out due to the state of the industry and lack of demos, with that said I don't actually pirate games, I did when I was younger as a demo but I haven't really had to, and I've got a considerable amount of games.

I didn't think it was possible in the age of Steam, Origin etc. to actually pirate games! I've bought over 400 games, and have completed maybe 50. I think I've paid back for the piracy I did when I was skint.