Project managers

Morba · 27 May 2009 at 01:18

Pneumonic said:
is the internet everyone is an expert

Would be nice to see how some of these experts would cope when they are the ones running the projects

completely!
i am far to disorganised to even think of being a PM, having worked with some very good ones, i can say i wouldnt want ot be juggling all that they do :]

panthro · 27 May 2009 at 03:21

Nearly all the talk of PM's on here are to do with the IT industry right?
Sounds like hardly any of them know how to do a good job!

Fido McNasty · 27 May 2009 at 06:36

It isn't the exclusive domain of a project manager to be ignorant. Anyone and everyone plays that game.

Does he or she float too?

Quint · 27 May 2009 at 07:57

Sounds like your 1st project.
Get used to it or find a new job.

Pneumonic · 27 May 2009 at 08:35

panthro said:
Nearly all the talk of PM's on here are to do with the IT industry right?
Sounds like hardly any of them know how to do a good job!

It's the same with any person in any job... I have worked with some shocking developers, trainers, business analysts, etc... but also some very good ones...

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 08:44

codec said:
You really have no clue what he is on about otherwise you would have more of a grasp on what he is talking about and not reffer to him as "a spanner". I suggest you be silent as ironic as it is, it is you that cant talk to someone that you feel is below you with a narrow minded attitude like that.

Cheers codec, it seems there are a few too many people in here that have quite obviously missed the point or are far too quick to jump to uninformed opinions - sound like perfect PM material, hyuk huck!

Participant · 27 May 2009 at 10:53

nero120 said:
uninformed opinions

What other kind of opinions were you expecting, given that this is the internet and we can only go by what we deduce from the limited information provided?

Morba · 27 May 2009 at 11:41

nero120 said:
Cheers codec, it seems there are a few too many people in here that have quite obviously missed the point or are far too quick to jump to uninformed opinions - sound like perfect PM material, hyuk huck!

fella, you do yourself no favours!
You missed the mark, you were too quick to jump to an uninformed opinion.
You also still seem like the sort of person most people on a project would want to avoid.

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 12:40

Robbie G said:
What other kind of opinions were you expecting, given that this is the internet and we can only go by what we deduce from the limited information provided?

Well for one I didn't expect so many people making such blatant accusations about competancy, etc considering this was obviously a rant thread and I gave brealy any details to the context.

Considering the amount of PMs in this thread (whether they admit it or not) and the "oh you don't sound like th kind of person I would want to work with" comments, they certainly never fail to live up to their reputation.

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 12:43

Morba said:
fella, you do yourself no favours!
You missed the mark, you were too quick to jump to an uninformed opinion.
You also still seem like the sort of person most people on a project would want to avoid.

I love the fact that people on here are banding accusations around, when the only accusation I can be held guilty to the mob that is the OCUK poster is not providing enough detail. Still, I wouldn't expect a PM to know the difference.

Basher · 27 May 2009 at 12:48

nero120 said:
I love the fact that people on here are banding accusations around

To be fair, it is mostly you doing that.

You are treating all PM's as if they are idiots just because you've had a bad experience and/or not really understood what the PM was telling you.

There are plenty of good PM's around, don't assume they're all as bad as the worst one you've had.

NickK · 27 May 2009 at 12:51

I would get wound up about it (OP).

I don't believe in the "it's done when it's done". Everything has it's trade offs but being 12 years late to the market (Duke Nukem) for example is good example why unmanaged technical developments fail along with the company.

If someone asks you to estimate, it's well within your rights to state that it will take X time to look at the tasks and to give an estimate for the time it will take. Be open to new approaches to the task.
However if the end estimation is beyond what they expect, it's then a negotiation to define what can be done, what priorities exist etc.

PMs that think they can "magic" work without their team by just ignoring them are idiots. Part of their role is to handle expectations in all directions - that includes working with management to deliver the best compromise.

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 12:52

Basher said:
To be fair, it is mostly you doing that.

You are treating all PM's as if they are idiots just because you've had a bad experience and/or not really understood what the PM was telling you.

There are plenty of good PM's around, don't assume they're all as bad as the worst one you've had.

Sigh. If you'd actually read the thread you would have discovered that I HAVE said that there are good PMs, and there is nothing more I like better than working with a good PM. Unfortunately, most PMs I've worked with have not been good. That is my experience, so deal with it.

Basher · 27 May 2009 at 12:53

nero120 said:
Sigh. If you'd actually read the thread you would have discovered that I HAVE said that there are good PMs, and there is nothing more I like better than working with a good PM. Unfortunately, most PMs I've worked with have not been good. That is my experience, so deal with it.

Yes, but you end almost every post with a remark about how bad PM's are. Why?

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 12:54

Basher said:
Yes, but you end almost every post with a remark about how bad PM's are. Why?

Why? Because this is a PM bashing thread!

If it offends your sensitivities then rest assurd in the fact that you (think you) are a good PM!

NickK · 27 May 2009 at 12:56

Mirage said:
If you're really worried think of a number and double it. I was told this early on and it rarely fails that you'll come out looking good .

I've been given an 70 day estimate for what is an SQL SELECT COUNT(*) FROM X in a shell script. The regional team did it in 1/2 a day.

Obviously the example above shows a complete lack of understanding from those concerned (including their management).

Basher · 27 May 2009 at 12:57

nero120 said:
Why? Because this is a PM bashing thread!

If it offends your sensitivities then rest assurd in the fact that you (think you) are a good PM!

I'm not a PM, but I recognise that one bad PM doesn't make all other PMs automatically bad.

I once had a bad curry but I dont bitch and moan that all curry's are bad.

GSXRMovistar · 27 May 2009 at 13:01

nero120 said:
Well for one I didn't expect so many people making such blatant accusations about competancy, etc considering this was obviously a rant thread and I gave brealy any details to the context.

Considering the amount of PMs in this thread (whether they admit it or not) and the "oh you don't sound like th kind of person I would want to work with" comments, they certainly never fail to live up to their reputation.

That case fancy filling in some of the details, such as your age, length of time in your current role, amount of time/experience in the industry, size of company you work for, amount of people involved with this project, how many other people in this project are dependent/affected by your deliverables?

You keep throwing up what comes across as very childish remarks about PMs and how they are all the same, it makes any valid points you may have hard believe.

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 13:02

Basher said:
I'm not a PM, but I recognise that one bad PM doesn't make all other PMs automatically bad.

I once had a bad curry but I dont bitch and moan that all curry's are bad.

Currys are not PMs!

Honestly, you may think I'm being beligerant but from every developer I've ever spoken to, they have worked with far more bad PMs than good ones. It's the nature of the role, you don't need any real qualifications to do it and the fact that you can earn a decent wage draws in all sorts. Unfortuantely, a lot of people who clearly won't make good PMs get hired. Probably due to the fact that the demand far outstrips the supply of good PMs, and it's very difficult to judge a good PM in an interview.

This obviously doesn't happen with devs as they need to have proven technical qualifications and experience, and if you can't do the job it's a lot harder to justify than if you were a PM.

This could also be why every UK government IT project ever started has run ridiculously over budget and often the spec is completely unfit for purpose.

nero120 · 27 May 2009 at 13:05

GSXRMovistar said:
That case fancy filling in some of the details, such as your age, length of time in your current role, amount of time/experience in the industry, size of company you work for, amount of people involved with this project, how many other people in this project are dependent/affected by your deliverables?

Why would I bother, as has been said NUMEROUS times already, this is a RANT thread. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? Being that it is a RANT thread, I would expect anyone with half a brain to recognise this (clue: angry smiley as thread icon) and realise that I may not be providing all the details, so probably not the best basis to form an opinion of my competancy...

You keep throwing up what comes across as very childish remarks about PMs and how they are all the same, it makes any valid points you may have hard believe.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, but clearly there are people in this thread who understand what I'm talking about.