Quit smoking. Vape good or bad.

[DoneADougalOnSofa]

Vaping is as stupid as smoking. The risk factors are a different or unknown. Just stop inhaling ****, find something else to do.

So, the two base chemicals (proplylene glycol and glycerine),which are both classed as safe by ingestion and inhalation, are just a 'different' risk to 7000+ chemicals, including over 70 known carcinogens in tobacco smoke?

Sorry. My life, not yours.

 

[DoneADougalOnSofa]

And for those talking about the legislation, it's coming.

Google TPD article 20 for info.
Utterly ridiculous and unnecessary restrictions, like cracking a walnut by slamming an asteroid into it. And also technically illegal. (Totally Wicked had a prelim ECJ hearing yesterday (1st).

 

[ttaskmaster]

That's exactly my point, there is no concrete evidence or enough research conducted by professional/trustworthy sources...

So you tell me who your professional and trustworthy sources are and I'll go get them to do the tests. That was my point... Seriously, what DO you want to see? What IS acceptable to you?
The NHS are trying to get these prescribed, numerous health organisations are in favour of vaping, actually proper real genuine trained and qualified doctors (many of whom do not smoke, either) are supporting this... What WILL it take?
Or are you just in the employ of a tobacco company and worried that vaping will eat into your quarterly bonus?

They had no scientific credibility at all.

There are plenty of independent tests and research conducted well before vaping became a thing, as well as since, which were and still are used by the various regulatory bodies to certify them as safe (since these chemicals are already very prevalent in our lives). How do you think PG ended up in asthma inhalers?

Really, is that all you could come up with??

It's not an easy thing for me to go through the perfume counters at Debenhams and I've known several people whose asthma it always sets off. But you can't complain, because it's someone's perfume...
So yeah, I'll put that up against the anti-smoking brigade.

Would you be OK with someone having an alcoholic drink and then burping in your face?

Taking issue tends to get you lamped - Are you suggesting I start lamping anyone who objects to my vaping?

I have already stated my point that I have no problem with people vaping, it can smell nice, but yea, if someone blows it in my face after they have inhaled it or somewhere I can't move away from, it's ignorant and selfish.

Then be aware of where vaping is allowed and don't go there, yeh?

Appreciate it is in our food but I rarely inhale ice-cream, coffee or shampoo.

Which is why I mentioned the asthma inhalers.
There are a lot of industries where workers do breathe in highly concentrated pure PG, so much testing was done on the toxicity there.

400w mod?

Pansy talk... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6n6FYS4kKM

 

[stoofa]

The people who tell you "vaping" is absolutely fine are people telling you this based on the same amount of, and time researching as the people "back in the day" who told you regular smoking was fine.
Maybe it'll all turn out fine, maybe there is absolutely zero effects from vaping - but then smoking, asbestos & thalidomide were all "absolutely fine" when people asked.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

The lungs were not designed to inhale smoke, as far as I know any smoke will do some damage to the lungs regardless of it being a real cigerette or an electronic one.

Saying that, it's logical to assume vaping is far healthier than smoking real cigerettes since real cigerettes contain loads of deadly chemicals.

Silly comment. Vapour doesn't contain smoke, what you inhale is not harmful.

I make my own vape juice. I know all my ingredients and that they are all food grade and been used in the confectionery industry for years. The only real nasty thing about vape juice is the horrible cheap knock offs they sell in sketchy corner shops. If you plan to vape seriously making your own juice is cheap, quick and will qualm any fears created by the 'needs more testing' brigade. We know it is healthier than smoking.

For those people saying that vaping is not quitting and is therefore pointless. Well at the end of the day the goal is to be healthier, its not about the addiction. Smoking isnt bad because its addictive, The addiction with smoking is bad because the smoke is harmful.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

I don't like how the word 'Chemicals' is being thrown around with such a negative connotation. Why not call the chemicals what they are, as to better inform people of what it is you are inhaling. No need to fear monger over the unknown when we know what it is. I am not saying it cant do with more looking in to but purposely using generic terms with negative connotations to discourage vaping (which is obviously a healthier alternative to smoking) is something i don't agree with.

The people who tell you "vaping" is absolutely fine are people telling you this based on the same amount of, and time researching as the people "back in the day" who told you regular smoking was fine.
Maybe it'll all turn out fine, maybe there is absolutely zero effects from vaping - but then smoking, asbestos & thalidomide were all "absolutely fine" when people asked.

My vape juice contains mainly vegetable glycerine, which has been used for years in practically anything that comes with packet. A lot of studies have been made on it before vaping was a thing.

 

[Gregster]

Silly comment. Vapour doesn't contain smoke, what you inhale is not harmful.

I make my own vape juice. I know all my ingredients and that they are all food grade and been used in the confectionery industry for years. The only real nasty thing about vape juice is the horrible cheap knock offs they sell in sketchy corner shops. If you plan to vape seriously making your own juice is cheap, quick and will qualm any fears created by the 'needs more testing' brigade. We know it is healthier than smoking.

The only dangers

For those people saying that vaping is not quitting and is therefore pointless. Well at the end of the day the goal is to be healthier, its not about the addiction. Smoking isnt bad because its addictive, The addiction with smoking is bad because the smoke is harmful.

+1

 

[Avenged7Fold]

They don't. There is no reaction occurring, no combustion. It vaporises far before it can get hot enough to react.

Veg Glycerins:

Flash Point: 193 deg C ( 379.40 deg F)

Autoignition Temperature: 400 deg C ( 752.00 deg F)

http://www.gulfcoastvapor.com/MSDS-Vegetable-Glycerin-s/171.htm)

Though the flashpoint seems low, it vaporises far before it can burn. Even still, its burning doesn't produce harmful compounds to inhale at temperatures these coils can heat it to. You can take almost anything and put it in a context where it produces harmful vapours but if you put it in the context of use in vaporisers then there is little to no harm in vaping.

There are alternative liquids to use in vaping but are arguably more dangerous. The argument against has always seem to be, 'it hasn't been around long enough' but alternative liquids made from things like alcohol can be dangerous when heated in silly super powered mods. I get the want for more clouds, as i use to smoke a hookah at university and thoroughly enjoyed it and higher power mods can replicate the feeling but the willy waving part of it is a bit...

People have smoked hookah for thousands of years and for decades with tabaco free alternatives which are used just to soak up the flavoured liquid to vaporise. I dont understand how a tobacco free hookah with an electronic coal is any different to a e-cigarette in terms of danger.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

It's not just the VG, it's the flavourings as well... and just because something isn't burning doesn't mean there's no chemical change before that point, does it?

No need for condescension, we know the gasses the VG is exposed to and i choose the flavourings myself. I am going to assume that my masters in Physics and the handful of years experience in doing research has given me the practical knowledge to make an informed decision that vaping is safe enough for myself. The hookah comment is because there has been no wailing on the unknown dangers of it, yet that has been around far longer than e-cigs where the main argument is 'we haven't tested enough'. The reason why we hear no fear-mongering for hookahs is because it is not an alternative to smoking cigarettes and wont take money away from some of the tobacco companies.

If you were so afraid of flavourings and didnt trust yourself to read what is in them, then you can always jsut go flavourless. Some people may enjoy the taste of cigarettes but no one smokes them just because of teh taste, so flavouring is not needed. Many of these flavourings are in food products with VG and are cooked at heats higher than shelf stocked e-cigs get to.

I
So you've gone from 'no harm' to 'little to no harm' faster than a fast thing...

It is much hard to prove what isnt happening then to prove what is happening when you dont know what isnt happening. Apart from your fear of the unknown, have you seen any evidence that proper vapour juice is harmful? I can change it to a more definitive comment if it makes you want to believe me more. I don't see how my no harm to little harm comment changes any facts i have stated on vaping.

 

[Greebo]

It's not just the VG, it's the flavourings as well... and just because something isn't burning doesn't mean there's no chemical change before that point, does it? This is an example of something I'm reminded of because it was in the news recently, rather than me saying people are trying to vape with cooking oil, but eg. you can have vegetable oil in a pan and heat it... there's a chemical change there where aldehydes are formed, just at normal frying temperatures.

So you've gone from 'no harm' to 'little to no harm' faster than a fast thing...

The hookah comment seems pretty random - did I advocate using that as an alternative?

Definition of toxic is something which if taken in sufficient quantities causes harm and or/death.


Fact is almost everything is harmful including water.


On your basis, best not eat,drink anything or breathe any air.

 

[D D Danneh]

I worked in a local shop that sells totallywicked products for the last 3 months or so, and I've picked up a lot of knowledge and experience of vapers as a result.

First off, the vast majority of your vapour is PG, propylene glycol, and VG, vegetable glycerin, both of which are used in foods, cosmetics, asthma inhalers, food-safe lubricants, PG is even used for some water insoluble drugs for IV injection. There is no doubt these are safe for inhalation. Tests with prolongued exposue (I believe it was 8 hours) of tobacco smoke, PG/VG and air with artifically grown lung cells showed no discernible difference in cell viability between air and PG vapour.

Nicotine itself is harmless in reasonable quantities. E-liquids should be kept away from children of course, because drinking a bottle could prove fatal, however the same can be said of countless household products, so I don't believe that should be a mark against vaping. Tons of people drink coffee, and the physiological pro's and con's aren't too dissimilar.

There may be some concern to be had with some of the flavourings. The famous example is 'popcorn lung', which sounds horrible but it's a term to describe the origin, not the symptoms thankfully. 8 workers in a buttered popcorn factory developed the respiratory problems after prolonged exposure to inhalation of diacetyl, a common "butter" flavour, deemed safe for ingestion but unknown to be damaging to the lungs. This is present in quite a few butters/custards/creams, but most companies are aware of this and have removed them from their repertoire. Acetoin, diketones, acetyl chloride and possibly others are also suspected as damaging, and again, manufacturers are seeking to, or have, removed them from their liquids.

Personally I DIY and seek flavours without these chemicals, I enjoy vaping, and even though I'm down to 1-2mg/ml, and could quit, it's a fun, and tasty hobby. The important thing is that *because* this practice has arisen out of a desire for harm reduction, tests are always being performed to determine, and remove any harmful chemicals. There might be one or two slightly damaging compounds (I say slightly or else there'd be tons of sick vapers, I haven't heard a single case yet), but time, and the endeavours of the scientific community will sort these out.

The main thing to take away from this is that vaping is several orders of magnitude safer than smoking, while retaining the same feel and nicotine hit that many have come to enjoy. It is very rewarding when you can help a little old lady pack in the fags, and save her a boatload of money in the process. For many the benefits are clear, no more cough, no more smell, and I've chatted to tons of people for whom vaping has changed their life. Those who stigmatize these people based on misconceptions and fear can go suck a cloud.

With that said I do believe there is an element of courtesy to be had. Just because I believe it safe, and for passive vaping to be a smaller risk than the pollutants already in the air, doesn't mean others think the same, so it's not fine or polite to go blowing it in people's faces, or filling an indoor area with fog, unless explicitly stated. If I'm walking down the street I'll purposefully exhale away from people. Last night I was having a few drinks with friends in a reasonably quiet bar. I exhaled downwards, and there was definitely no vapour near anybody else, but a bar member asked me to stop. Rather than get uppity and start giving lectures, I accepted it and went outside when I fancied a vape, no problem.

edit: One further point, one thing I have seen is teenagers picking up vaping because they think it's cool, not to quit smoking. This is a bad thing in my opinion, and detracts from the positive impact vaping has had. I refuse to sell to anyone under 18, or anyone looking to "just get into it". It's a safer smoking alternative, but it's still going to have some impact greater than simply breathing air, not to mention the addictive nature of nicotine.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Definition of toxic is something which if taken in sufficient quantities causes harm and or/death.

What, like hearing the Britney Spears song too often?

The people who tell you "vaping" is absolutely fine are people telling you this based on the same amount of, and time researching as the people "back in the day" who told you regular smoking was fine.
Maybe it'll all turn out fine, maybe there is absolutely zero effects from vaping - but then smoking, asbestos & thalidomide were all "absolutely fine" when people asked.

Studies have shown that drinking orange juice gives you cancer.
Studies have shown that drinking orange juice prevents cancer.
No word of a lie - Seperate studies have shown both.

To be honest, they've been testing this stuff since the '30s and it requires many more decades before anyone like yourself will even consider accepting the results... by which time we'll both be long dead, so who cares!!

I smoked up to 30 a day for 24 years. Why should I give a toss about the safety of vaping?

Also, did you know people have died from eating peanuts?
PEANUTS!!!!!!!!
Like OMG........

Seriously, first time I ever heard of someone with a flipping NUT allergy, yet suddenly everything is now having to be marked up with "may contain nuts" (it's a packet of nuts, you nutter), despite the fact that we've been eating these for *thousands* of years....!!

Sorry, I am NOT waiting a thousand years just to find out if my vaping is possibly upsetting the delicate balance of your health...

You say they're food safe and have been used in the confectionary industry, but does that mean they definitely don't break down into anything harmful when heated in the vaping process?

You are aware that a lot of food is cooked, yes?
PG is found in instant coffee, baking mixtures, beer, cooking butters (and butter-likes), many sauces and so on.
It's also used massively in many industries and in far higher concentrations of lower grades, where it's heated well above what vaping goes up to. Heck, my own oven does this, so if PG *is* harmful, those cupcakes I've been making for years will be the death of me!

Why not call the chemicals what they are, as to better inform people of what it is you are inhaling.

Because propylene glycol sounds better when you call it DEADLY ANTIFREEZE, rather than "the compound used to replace ethylene glycol and make it *safer* in the case of accidental ingestion". Doesn't sell so many newspapers or bump up your clickbait.

purposely using generic terms with negative connotations to discourage vaping (which is obviously a healthier alternative to smoking) is something i don't agree with.

Nah, stuff 'em.
If they don't want me to vape, that's fine.... I'll just crack out a blowtorch and set fire to this foot-long stogie, here!!

My vape juice contains mainly vegetable glycerine

VEGETABLE!!!!
See - Vaping even gives you one of your Five A Day!!!
Most of these things were being tested long before vaping was a thing. But people don't want to know that, which makes it unrealiable and inadmissible.

Silly comment. Vapour doesn't contain smoke, what you inhale is not harmful.

It's *less harmful* than spending all day in the steam room or sauna... but you're still pulling something into your lungs that is not basic air and thus not what they were designed to respire.... don't kid yourself on that one.

For those people saying that vaping is not quitting and is therefore pointless.

They can enjoy my cigar, then...
They do not get to rise and sleep under the blanket of the very smokelessness I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it!

 

[Gee]

There may be some concern to be had with some of the flavourings. The famous example is 'popcorn lung', which sounds horrible but it's a term to describe the origin, not the symptoms thankfully. 8 workers in a buttered popcorn factory developed the respiratory problems after prolonged exposure to inhalation of diacetyl, a common "butter" flavour, deemed safe for ingestion but unknown to be damaging to the lungs. This is present in quite a few butters/custards/creams, but most companies are aware of this and have removed them from their repertoire. Acetoin, diketones, acetyl chloride and possibly others are also suspected as damaging, and again, manufacturers are seeking to, or have, removed them from their liquids.

Personally I DIY and seek flavours without these chemicals, I enjoy vaping, and even though I'm down to 1-2mg/ml, and could quit, it's a fun, and tasty hobby.

This is exactly why I moved onto DIY myself. As I mentioned previously I only use Flavour Art concentrates now for the strict reason that they contain zero diketones. It's been like this since 2010 and they have the results available online to prove this.

I enjoy mixing and creating my own juices, some of them are superb - my mates seem to agree too!

I've gone from 12mg down to 1.5mg in probably the past year, but I agree, it's a fun hobby in my eyes.

 

[dirtybeatfreak]

Then be aware of where vaping is allowed and don't go there, yeh?

Again you are blinded by your crusade to just defend. You haven't even considered that I may well be a smoker or vaper myself. I vaped just before I quit fully because of other health reasons. I really enjoyed it, the different flavours and gadgets you can get. But what you failed to pick up on in my posts is that I don't like it when people do it where you can't avoid it or are not mindful of other people around them (which you have proven you aren't with your attitude about it). So I just wont leave the house yea, because vapers are not considerate enough to smoke them away from others??? That way I can avoid situations like in Tescos when I were queuing to pay for my items and the ass behind me decided to blow it in my face when I turned around. Or, I could just avoid using the packed train and walk to where I needed to be because I should avoid them.

Edit: The below is the attitude that vapers should have, and one I fully support. Not your arrogant and selfish one

With that said I do believe there is an element of courtesy to be had. Just because I believe it safe, and for passive vaping to be a smaller risk than the pollutants already in the air, doesn't mean others think the same, so it's not fine or polite to go blowing it in people's faces, or filling an indoor area with fog, unless explicitly stated. If I'm walking down the street I'll purposefully exhale away from people. Last night I was having a few drinks with friends in a reasonably quiet bar. I exhaled downwards, and there was definitely no vapour near anybody else, but a bar member asked me to stop. Rather than get uppity and start giving lectures, I accepted it and went outside when I fancied a vape, no problem.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Again you are blinded by your crusade to just defend.

Nope. Just being flippant, really.
I could take the opposite approach and demand you prove it's UNsafe, or quit complaining until it is so proven... No less arrogant and selfish, I guess.

You haven't even considered that I may well be a smoker or vaper myself.

Ah, well then that more than qualifies you to get on your high horse about it, since you've previously been a nasty evil smoker too, right?
I'm sure you're a perfect driver and everyone else is an inconsiderate pillock, right?
I'm sure if we'd had more smokers like you, we'd never have been banned in the first place...

But what you failed to pick up on in my posts is that I don't like it when people do it where you can't avoid it or are not mindful of other people around them (which you have proven you aren't with your attitude about it).

I don't like it when other people fart in public, despite being a farter myself...

Personally disliking something is not reason to ban others from it. If that were the case, foul-smelling foods and god-awful old lady perfumes would be banned from public places.

So I just wont leave the house yea, because vapers are not considerate enough to smoke them away from others???

If there's nothing banning them from doing so, then yeah you'd best stay home, I think. This world of freedom may prove to be a bit much for you...

That way I can avoid situations like in Tescos when I were queuing to pay for my items and the ass behind me decided to blow it in my face when I turned around.

Is it banned in Tesco?
No?
Then what's the problem?

Or, I could just avoid using the packed train and walk to where I needed to be because I should avoid them.

Pretty much.
It's for that kind of reason I don't go near the entrances of Debenhams or BHS - The front counters STINK of old lady perfumes.
I also don't go into the shops during Christmas because I HATE the music they play.
I don't think they really miss my business either, so no love lost either way!

Edit: The below is the attitude that vapers should have, and one I fully support. Not your arrogant and selfish one

And what makes you think I AM so arrogant and selfish?
Just because I make fun of the anti-smoking-Nazi brigade who are now turning all Daily Mail on vaping, doesn't mean I actually AM like that in real life - This is the internet after all!!

If you want to kow-tow to everyone else's opinions on the things you do, you go knock yourself out...
With so much else getting banned, mainly because some middle-aged white guy thinks someone "might be offended by it", I find myself caring less about other peoples' opinions and just doing whatever the hell I want, to be honest.
Not at all how I was raised, but whatever I do (including exhibiting the epitome of good manners and common courtesy), someone will play the victim off it - Can't even hold a door open for someone these days, so **** them - I'mma vape and damn well enjoy it!!

 

[ttaskmaster]

You're aware I said the other ingredients/flavourings, too?

And what do you think is in all those yummy cupcakes, or the pink sponge I just cooked up, or the curry you're enjoying, or the myriad of other heated foods?

 

[Gregster]

Reading this thread, I am really learning stuff that I didn't know. Makes me feel good to be a vaper and a non smoker

 

[Elixir]

There appears to be some kind of club/group mentality around vaping which makes people want to take it up and be part of the gang, which also leads to the kind of black and white defensiveness towards negative comments that you more often see with political party or football team supporters.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

It's a thread about vaping, not one about hookahs with people claiming they're safe and so forth.

You miss the point. Doesnt matter whether it is hookah or vaporiser, there are tobacco free hookahs with electronic coals that are for all purpose the same as an e cig in terms of what you ingest and the temperature the liquid is heated to. They have been proven safe for many years, yet for some reason because it isnt a hand held device, you cant count it as evidence that e liquid is safe?

There's the paper mentioned earlier in this thread...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935114003089

That study just shows vaping or smoking in a closed environment leads to a high concentration in nicotine in the air (duh). It shows vapers have more nicotine in the air which again (duh) is unsurprising given the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid compare to tobacco. It is safer as it comes with none of the other nasty things in tobacco like tar and CO and eliquids vary in strength so much that the point of the study is moot if you try to apply it to judge whether vaping is safe or not.

That study is irrelevant to the smoker trying to give up, which is what this thread is about. E-cigarettes have shown to be very effective in cutting down smoking and nicotine intake for the smoker.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

There appears to be some kind of club/group mentality around vaping which makes people want to take it up and be part of the gang, which also leads to the kind of black and white defensiveness towards negative comments that you more often see with political party or football team supporters.

It is the same with anything people are passionate about. Each side thinks they know better. The pro vapers seem defensive to you because for them vaping has made a huge positive difference in their life and the arguments against so far are based on speculation. I react the same way when i see those silly paranoid mothers refusing jabs due to whatever flavour of conspiracy they prefer.