Raptor Lake Leaks + Intel 4 developments

[cliffy]

It's very likely RPL will be better value than Zen4 (assuming they both release this year) simply due to DDR4 controller on RPL and compatibility with what will be older Z690 motherboards when the Z790 boards launch.

Nah mate. AM5 will offer much better value as it will continue for a few generations. 700 series chipsets will only support RPL. Also re AM5 only supporting DDR5 is a cgood move, should mean a much stringer controller than that in RPL and DDR5 prices will drop. I do not like the RPL series having ahybrid memory controller as this is surely a weakness plus the 700 series boards will only support DDR 5 which would presonally put me off, not that i would buy a socket that was on its last upgrade.

PS i do love the fact you try to pretend to be nuetural with your comments about competion being good and AM5 pushing Intel, its been plain for years you are blue through and through. Honesylu though i expect ZEN 4 to beat RPL but 15% + forcing Intel to bring out another KS chip £300 more then it should be just to reduce teh gap to 10% at best

 

[LePhuronn]

Maybe the boards will also support meteor lake which is only going to have a DDR5 controller.

Meteor Lake is supposedly LGA1800...so unless Intel have designed the new socket to be pin compatible and shared the new socket specs with motherboard vendors early and said vendors are putting an extra 100 pins into their sockets right now, it is highly doubtful Meteor Lake will drop into 600 and 700 series boards.

 

[Joxeon]

Meteor Lake is supposedly LGA1800...so unless Intel have designed the new socket to be pin compatible and shared the new socket specs with motherboard vendors early and said vendors are putting an extra 100 pins into their sockets right now, it is highly doubtful Meteor Lake will drop into 600 and 700 series boards.

The LGA1700 socket actually has 1800 pins (100 in reserve) and since RPL is just a refresh of ADL then it makes sense that the extra 100 are reserved for meteor lake which will almost certainly run exclusively on DDR5 which is probably why 700 series boards are moving to DDR5 only so everyone who buys into the latest tech will get an upgrade path while those who use a cheap DDR4 600 series board + RPL will essentially save money but have no upgrade options.

 

[alec]

makes sense that the extra 100 are reserved for meteor lake

Even if it is so from engineering/tooling aspect, this is Intel. No way will they allow three generations to run on same socket.
Hell, they couldn't allow backwards compatibility even when it was literally 5 generations of Skylake...

 

[Dave2150]

The LGA1700 socket actually has 1800 pins (100 in reserve) and since RPL is just a refresh of ADL then it makes sense that the extra 100 are reserved for meteor lake which will almost certainly run exclusively on DDR5 which is probably why 700 series boards are moving to DDR5 only so everyone who buys into the latest tech will get an upgrade path while those who use a cheap DDR4 600 series board + RPL will essentially save money but have no upgrade options.

RPL is a new architecture for the big cores, and an "enhancement" for the efficient cores. This is on top of cache improvements, and doubling of the efficient cores on the flagship. Pretty big improvement and not just a refresh.

 

[Dave2150]

Nah, the 12900KS will be very short lived (it's really scraping the barrel). Intel has every reason to rush out their 13th generation before Zen 4 is released.

Intel will need CPUs (unlocked or not) with 4.9/5ghz turbo speeds on all cores to stand a chance of coming close in performance.

Please link to the performance numbers for Zen4 that you're basing this on. I've not seen any leaks yet, so do share your sources if this is real and not just trolling.

 

[g67575]

It's just logic... Zen 3 is only a bit behind Alder Lake. Clocked at 5ghz on all cores, it wouldn't be far off (maybe 5% difference).

This is what AMD says Zen 4 will be clocked at (believable considering they are using 5nm EUV). I'm unsure if this will apply to 12/16 core versions.

But there's other factors too, like significantly higher L3 cache amounts (just like with 5800X3D).

There's improved ram support for DDR5 also, very likely not going to run with a memory controller gear like Alder Lake.

Finally, an ipc improvement of between 10-20% is typical for each Zen generation (arguably AMD's main focus with Ryzen).

 

[Joxeon]

RPL is a new architecture for the big cores, and an "enhancement" for the efficient cores. This is on top of cache improvements, and doubling of the efficient cores on the flagship. Pretty big improvement and not just a refresh.

That's not to say meteor lake won't still be on the same platform.

 

[Vulture]

RPL is a new architecture for the big cores, and an "enhancement" for the efficient cores. This is on top of cache improvements, and doubling of the efficient cores on the flagship. Pretty big improvement and not just a refresh.

Even intel in their slides said it is small improvement, up to and then multicore performance lol, i doubt it will be more than refresh.

 

[Vulture]

It's just logic... Zen 3 is only a bit behind Alder Lake. Clocked at 5ghz on all cores, it wouldn't be far off (maybe 5% difference).

This is what AMD says Zen 4 will be clocked at (believable considering they are using 5nm EUV). I'm unsure if this will apply to 12/16 core versions.

But there's other factors too, like significantly higher L3 cache amounts (just like with 5800X3D).

There's improved ram support for DDR5 also, very likely not going to run with a memory controller gear like Alder Lake.

Finally, an ipc improvement of between 10-20% is typical for each Zen generation (arguably AMD's main focus with Ryzen).

Each Zen generation was on the same platform, so they are limited how much IPC they can squeeze, Zen 4 will be completely new platform with much better power limits. We should compare previous platform migrate, AM3 to AM4.

 

[Dave2150]

It's just logic... Zen 3 is only a bit behind Alder Lake. Clocked at 5ghz on all cores, it wouldn't be far off (maybe 5% difference).

This is what AMD says Zen 4 will be clocked at (believable considering they are using 5nm EUV). I'm unsure if this will apply to 12/16 core versions.

But there's other factors too, like significantly higher L3 cache amounts (just like with 5800X3D).

There's improved ram support for DDR5 also, very likely not going to run with a memory controller gear like Alder Lake.

Finally, an ipc improvement of between 10-20% is typical for each Zen generation (arguably AMD's main focus with Ryzen).

No evidence, no sources, just your opinion. Glad that's been cleared up

 

[Joxeon]

Even if it is so from engineering/tooling aspect, this is Intel. No way will they allow three generations to run on same socket.
Hell, they couldn't allow backwards compatibility even when it was literally 5 generations of Skylake...

A few years back you didn't even get hyperthreading on anything but the flagship and B series boards locked memory overclocking but times have changed and Intel know they have to compete with AMDs socket longevity now.

 

[Twinz]

Intel surprised me with the jump they got from AL, and AMD dissapointed me a bit by only offering a single CCD variant of their Vcache after demonstrating a dual-CCD chip to get the hype started.

I would still be happy to have the best from either brand right now, so competition is having the desired effect.

However, "logic" alone clearly doesn't always predict what end-products we will have access to.

It *seems* like AMD should have an advantage on AM5 but it also seemed like Intel wouldn't have an answer for Zen 3 by now...yet they clearly came up with one.

 

[cliffy]

No evidence, no sources, just your opinion. Glad that's been cleared up

This is true but the evidence you should be looking at is that RPL will provide a "small" improvement. So don't go getting to excited

 

[Vulture]

Up to double digit performance boost (multicore) doesn't sound convincing to me. If Raptor Lake was a big upgrade, there is no doubt that Intel's CEO would have emphasized it to all the bells and whistles,he is known as a barker.

 

[Joxeon]

Up to double digit performance boost (multicore) doesn't sound convincing to me. If Raptor Lake was a big upgrade, there is no doubt that Intel's CEO would have emphasized it to all the bells and whistles,he is known as a barker.

Double digets could imply anywhere between 10 and 99%.

 

[g67575]

You say it's just an opinion, doesn't change the fact that Zen 4 is (obviously) a new processor architecture with a substantially improved manufacturing process with around 70% increased transistor density compared to TSMC's 7nm, used for Zen 3.

Additionally, AMD confirmed that 5ghz is the target for Zen 4 CPUs... Fairly clear cut.

It's true that AMD hasn't confirmed yet if V-Cache will be integrated into the Zen 4 CPUs available in 2022.

 

[Vulture]

You say it's just an opinion, doesn't change the fact that Zen 4 is (obviously) a new processor architecture with a substantially improved manufacturing process with around 70% increased transitory density compared to TSMC's 7nm, used for Zen 3.

Additionally, AMD confirmed that 5ghz is the target for Zen 4 CPUs... Fairly clear cut.

It's true that AMD hasn't confirmed yet if V-Cache will be integrated into the Zen 4 CPUs available in 2022.

Don't forget that I/O die will be based on TSMC 6nm which is huge huge bump from gloflo 12nm, and combined with the fact that it will be ddr5 only controller that means it doesn't have compromises and it should overclock very high while using less die space which they can use for cores and cache. Gloflo node was kinda bottleneck on Zen 3, i'm glad they fixed that. And fact that AMD secondary cheaper 6nm node is similar to Intel main 10/7nm node, while AMD main 5nm node is much better than Intel.

 

[g67575]

Double digets could imply anywhere between 10 and 99%.

The problem I have with this is that it doesn't say single threaded / single core performance. So, they can just get additional multithreaded performance by adding more E-Cores. Multithreaded performance is not the problem with today's CPUs, Zen 3 consumer CPUs already have upto 16 cores and upto 64 is possible with thread ripper / workstation CPUs. It also doesn't specifically mention IPC.

It does say 'enhanced overclocking features' though, so a push for 5ghz even on non K CPUs wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Vulture]

The problem I have with this is that it doesn't say single threaded / single core performance. So, they can just get additional multithreaded performance by adding more E-Cores.

Probably only multicore performance from the fact that they doubled amount of e-cores, otherwise they would emphashise IPC or single thread performance.