Return to 'The Troubles'?

Throw all the big-fairy-abusive-father-in-the-sky worshipers into a salt mine to sort it out, and leave the country to the survivors, and boycott them afterward for a 10 years or so to make a point.

It's like Corsica, or other insignificant piece of territory that claims 'independence' -- they wouldn't have flipping roads much less schools if some other, bigger country hadn't brought in civilisation (and it's downfalls) to them. Let them try to survive 10 years without subsidies... If they come out of it, great!
 
OK, so I've only read this page (so, from post #241) and I'm sure the thread has moved on from the root cause of all this.
Also, by way of full disclosure, I'm an Essex boy with no 'real' knowledge of NI politics beyond a general interest in current affairs and some anecdotal family history, so I'm not claiming to be an authority and I can assure you I'm not trolling.........
In addition please accept that I absolutely don't condone the levels of violence I abhor them. Even if I didn't have a moral issue with the violence, as a rationalist I'd see it all as being very counter productive.

My thoughts on this are that the loyalists/protestants or however you choose to pigeon hole them, are right to be up in arms about this.
I understand that English government of NI is an ongoing issue and this will continue, but as of right now NI is still governed by the British government, right?
So surely, the Union Flag SHOULD be flown at all times? It's 'their' country and they should be allowed to fly 'their' flag.
No other country in the world would have it, so why should they??

Again, I'm not saying that the British government should or shouldn't govern NI, I'm not familiar enough with the politics to have an informed opinion so please don't think I'm being partisan here.

The fact is, rightly or wrongly, for now at least the British DO govern NI and so surely it's right and proper that a British flag is flown.
If I were told that the raising of the Union flag in my country was being limited because people who lived in my country but claimed allegiance to another didn't like it (which I suppose is technically the case, isn't it?), I'd stand up and say "tough!". I'd protest in favour of it staying. I'd want to defend the identity of my country and therefore I'd defend the symbols of it.

I guess what I'm saying is the methodology is outrageous and indefensible, but the underlying sentiment is spot on.
 
Chris [BEANS];23547733 said:
My thoughts on this are that the loyalists/protestants or however you choose to pigeon hole them, are right to be up in arms about this.
I understand that English government of NI is an ongoing issue and this will continue, but as of right now NI is still governed by the British government, right?
So surely, the Union Flag SHOULD be flown at all times? It's 'their' country and they should be allowed to fly 'their' flag.
No other country in the world would have it, so why should they??
Click to expand...

No, you have it all wrong, so wrong you should be a little embarrassed (sorry).

Firstly the government over NI has nothing to do with England, it is made up of cross community mla's from all of NI (it's pretty much fully devolved and mostly autonomous). (though technically is predominately funded by the UK which is why we as British/mainland citizens should call the shots when the army should be called in to gun people down...)

Secondly in NI the Union flag is not the flag of the country a. because it is flown by only the loyalist community (less than half of NI) and b. represents a Union quite a bit of the population doesn't agree with. C. Everyone is annoyed not over it not being flow at all, but only flown on designated days (like all town alls everywhere including places in NI) when it was flown everyday before like the queen secretly had an orgy in Belfast city hall (which she almost never has been too because Ian Paisley is a terrible man).

Also ask your self this, do you feel it is your (or our) country? If yes, then where else do we fly that flag like it is a symbol of how great we are?? If no not our country its theirs, then why do they get to call them selves British at all and fly the Union flag as a symbol of something you don't like/agree with...
 
Chris [BEANS];23547733 said:
OK, so I've only read this page (so, from post #241) and I'm sure the thread has moved on from the root cause of all this.
Also, by way of full disclosure, I'm an Essex boy with no 'real' knowledge of NI politics beyond a general interest in current affairs and some anecdotal family history, so I'm not claiming to be an authority and I can assure you I'm not trolling.........
In addition please accept that I absolutely don't condone the levels of violence I abhor them. Even if I didn't have a moral issue with the violence, as a rationalist I'd see it all as being very counter productive.

My thoughts on this are that the loyalists/protestants or however you choose to pigeon hole them, are right to be up in arms about this.
I understand that English government of NI is an ongoing issue and this will continue, but as of right now NI is still governed by the British government, right?
So surely, the Union Flag SHOULD be flown at all times? It's 'their' country and they should be allowed to fly 'their' flag.
No other country in the world would have it, so why should they??

Again, I'm not saying that the British government should or shouldn't govern NI, I'm not familiar enough with the politics to have an informed opinion so please don't think I'm being partisan here.

The fact is, rightly or wrongly, for now at least the British DO govern NI and so surely it's right and proper that a British flag is flown.
If I were told that the raising of the Union flag in my country was being limited because people who lived in my country but claimed allegiance to another didn't like it (which I suppose is technically the case, isn't it?), I'd stand up and say "tough!". I'd protest in favour of it staying. I'd want to defend the identity of my country and therefore I'd defend the symbols of it.

I guess what I'm saying is the methodology is outrageous and indefensible, but the underlying sentiment is spot on.
Click to expand...

The British DON'T govern NI currently. It's a devolved power sharing government. But as I mentioned in earlier posts with regards to the GFA, it recognised that the majority wished to remain British and a small section wanted a United Ireland, the British repealed the government of Ireland act and the Irish gave up the territorial claim to the North. It allows people in Northern Ireland to identify as Irish or British and hold both Irish or British passports. It has been devolved back to London from time to time over the years, most recently over "Stormontgate" when the IRA were supposed to have been intelligence gathering, which outed the individual accused of the gathering as a British agent, who was later murdered by the IRA.

And I've already said about the disillusionment in deprived working class areas, where most of these protestors come from, in other posts. Add their complaints of perceived concessions to nationalists (which include trying to remove any trace of their British identity (by calling for the Union Jack to be entirely removed from flying over a government building)) and they kick off.
 
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pingwing said:
No, you have it all wrong, so wrong you should be a little embarrassed (sorry).

Firstly the government over NI has nothing to do with England, it is made up of cross community mla's from all of NI (it's pretty much fully devolved and mostly autonomous). (though technically is predominately funded by the UK which is why we as British/mainland citizens should call the shots when the army should be called in to gun people down...)

Secondly in NI the Union flag is not the flag of the country a. because it is flown by only the loyalist community (less than half of NI) and b. represents a Union quite a bit of the population doesn't agree with. C. Everyone is annoyed not over it not being flow at all, but only flown on designated days (like all town alls everywhere including places in NI) when it was flown everyday before like the queen secretly had an orgy in Belfast city hall (which she almost never has been too because Ian Paisley is a terrible man).

Also ask your self this, do you feel it is your (or our) country? If yes, then where else do we fly that flag like it is a symbol of how great we are?? If no not our country its theirs, then why do they get to call them selves British at all and fly the Union flag as a symbol of something you don't like/agree with...
Click to expand...

It is flown by more than just the loyalist community. The flag that is only flown by the loyalist community is the Ulster Banner.
 
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Jayster said:
It is flown by more than just the loyalist community. The flag that is only flown by the loyalist community is the Ulster Banner.
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Oh yeah that ruined st george's cross, the one that all loyalists should suck an englishman off to fly... (sounds harsh but it should have a yellow background if loyalism wants a fleg, otherwise its a ruined st geroges cross...)

But the Union flag is generally flown by unionists/loyalists (I fully accept there is a vague difference between the two) who fly it an unnecessary amount either way.
 
pingwing said:
Oh yeah that ruined st george's cross, the one that all loyalists should suck an englishman off to fly... (sounds harsh but it should have a yellow background if loyalism wants a fleg, otherwise its a ruined st geroges cross...)

But the Union flag is generally flown by unionists/loyalists (I fully accept there is a vague difference between the two) who fly it an unnecessary amount either way.
Click to expand...

It is also flown by the government. As I am sure you know it is essentially taken as the flag for Northern Ireland as it is the closest thing to a flag Northern Ireland has.
 
Should just be allowed to mow people down causing traffic jams with flags or congestion, waste of time with a load of people protesting about something they haven't got a ****ing clue what they are protesting about.

So many 12-21 year old nobs on their bikes with a flag tied round their neck, doubt they could spell Union Jack let alone know what the **** the whole thing is about.
 
Whats kinda funny is the stuff that comes from English media....how long ago was it their was places being burnt down to the ground costing how much across England?
 
They don't seem to know the different between Loyalists, Protestants, Nationalists, Catholics etc.

From the way its being reported you would think we are back to the old days of the troubles...you know...when 2 or more bombs where going off a day numerous people getting punishment beatings, capped etc.
 
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Mitzy said:
It's on BBC news, the guy was trying to leave Rathcoole?? AFAIK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI_VhAEwB0k&feature=youtu.be

http://www.independent.ie/national-...ioters-spread-havoc-across-north-3349804.html

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20998867
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Mitzy said:
From BBC

However, in County Antrim, police used water cannon during trouble on the Shore Road in Whiteabbey and also in Newtownabbey, where a PSNI Land Rover with a CCTV camera on the roof was set alight with a petrol bomb.

In Rathcoole in Newtownabbey, a distressed pensioner pleaded with protesters to let him pass through a road block so he could make his way to visit his seriously ill wife in hospital.

The protesters jeered at the elderly man and refused to let him through.
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Clav said:
I have pretty much the opposite politics to you on this, but I respect that you've made a string of intelligent, informed posts throughout the thread. And even agree with you on several points. But what are you trying to say about the old mans clip? That he is a stooge put there by someone to make the protesters look bad? Does it matter if he got through later on or found an alternative route?

The clip speaks for itself. A protestant man walking through a protestant community was barred from going somewhere quite important to him by a gang of other protestants. Fair enough, you might say, it is a protest after all. But instead of the people blocking the road explaining that they were out protesting and unfortunately he wouldn't be let through. They treated him, a fellow protestant and member of their own community like a piece of **** and openly mocked and jeered at him. It was a disgrace and is indefensible.
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The problem with this story is that there was no rioting in Rathcoole, the rioting was at Cloughfern corner and the bus was burnt in a place called Rathfern. It was very much confined like almost all rioting in N Ireland to a very small area. Why would a local man even feel the need to secretly record it?

Where was he coming from?
Where did it happen?
Where was he going to?
Did he get there another route?
Did it even happen?
 
Orcish-Horde said:
That was not useless policing, that was the police setting them up for a sectarian attack and in turn black propaganda.
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So you're now saying the police are setting up loyalists to be attacked? Oh how the tables have turned...


I also note this little video never mentioned the loyalists in days past chanting sectatian slogans at the nationalists area, basically egging on a confrontation, which the loyalists were seemingly prepared for with most of them being masked up and hooded (funny how they always turn out that way for "peaceful protests" isn't it?). The cameras only pointed in one direction for the majority of this video, unsurprisingly.
 
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Gerard said:
So you're now saying the police are setting up loyalists to be attacked? Oh how the tables have turned...


I also note this little video never mentioned the loyalists in days past chanting sectatian slogans at the nationalists area, basically egging on a confrontation, which the loyalists were seemingly prepared for with most of them being masked up and hooded (funny how they always turn out that way for "peaceful protests" isn't it?). The cameras only pointed in one direction for the majority of this video, unsurprisingly.
Click to expand...

You act like this is the first time short strand have been involved in this rioting.
 
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